1964 Conundrum

[Guest]

So first I should say due to real work I haven't been paying much attention to the Lincoln Cent search.

I found a very odd 1964 cent that I immediately "assumed" has to be a 1964 SMS. I thought that immediately upon picking it up, sharp rims I could feel and very nice looking for a 64. I opened a similar 1964 cent from a mint cellophane wrapper and used this standard BU Uncirculated cent comparison. They are nothing alike with respect to strike and finish.

However as in all "assumptions" I would like to see if you guys can clearly "see" through pictures what appears obvious in person. Im attaching pictures of the cent I feel is an SMS and the regular 64 I am using for comparison.

Since I would never even think to purposefully look for a 1964 SMS coin I began to wonder if they are ever found, I have not found any recent certs or reports that say they are.

Anyway, sorry for the pics I was in a hurry but I think you can see the finish on the supposed 1964 SMS is very different from the business strike.

[cimperialis]

Can you indicate which of the two cents in the photo is the one you think is from a mint set?

[rnelson0419]

Thus the conundrum. I was afraid that the side by side scans didn't show the differences. The coin in question is on the right, all single pictures are of the coin in question. These were meant to illustrate the "frosted" appearance of the bust and the lettering. The lighting is the issue, I'll see if I can get some better ones.

[liveandievarieties]

That is indeed interesting, but not unheard of- I've pulled a good handful of PL '64P Cents. There ARE markers for the SMS coin, though I don't believe one has ever been pinpointed without provenance of being from the hoard they all came from. Nice looking coin indeed!

[chzman]

I believe that comparing this coin, side by side to a 65,66, or 67 SMS penny may be an option, if it matches up well then you will need to get it attributed by an expert anyway.

[liveandievarieties]

No, comparing it to another SMS won't conclusively tell you anything. There are documented markers for the '64 SMS cent. It may take a little research, but dig up the markers and compare them to the coin you have, that is your only chance at getting anything confirmed. I promise, if you were to submit your coin to a TPG without any evidence, they'll return it in a regular holder.

[rnelson0419]

I looked around casually last night for markers, but will put some effort into that today.

I scanned it with another 64 again this time with a dark background, might help, might not, again the coin in question is on the right. Note the sharp squared rim and "soft" finish.

[chzman]

That's why I said take it to an expert after I said comparing it would be a good start. These pictures are not telling us enough.

[chzman]

There are documented markers for the '64 SMS cent

Where are these web sites, that may help the OP?

[rnelson0419]

I would send it to be attributed regardless of the answers here. Chris is absolutely correct they would simply grade it and return. I was just asking for feedback. I can see the difference in those coins in the pictures, they are not alike. I think Jason has a 67 maybe he has an idea where I could find markers.

[jcuve]

This could just be a random PL coin, or maybe an earlier die state. I have not seen one in person. If there are known markers, I am not sure where they are published. If I was at a show where one was at, I could document die markers - but I am not counting on that happening anytime soon.

[coppercoins]

The rims on this coin indicate that it is proof. In fact, they prove it. Mint state coins simply do not exist with razor sharp, thick rims. So there's no chance that this is just a well struck, EDS coin.

What it is - and I have seen dozens of them - is a proof cent struck with late dies (for a proof) that didn't turn all brassy shiny. Instead the dies wore much more like a business strike die would wear. I have a few examples of this with some light cameo and some with no cameo.

As for the SMS coins - last I heard there were fewer than a hundred of the sets that ever made it into the hands of collectors. Not sure the number. And as Chris points out, all the SMS cents were struck with a single die pair, so markers can certainly rule this out as a possibility with this coin.

I am already certain it is a proof struck with worn dies...but having it authenticated - just in case - would be smart.

[liveandievarieties]

I don't think you're understanding- comparing your coin to a 1967 for markers will do nothing. You must RESEARCH to find the noted die markers for the 1964 SMS cent- I saw once on CoinTalk that someone had described them in detail- the information is out there, but you must find it.

Locate the markers for the 1964 SMS (there was only one die that made these, the markers are the same for all 1964 SMS Cents). Compare your coin to recognized markers, this is the only way to authenticate it. Furthermore, you must provide all of this information to a TPG IF it were an SMS coin- you can't expect a grading company to do the research for you, they wont.

[Coinflip]

Nice markers here, nice discussion

http://www.pcgscoinfacts.com/Coin/Detail/3284

[1jackel1]

hi, your Lincoln cent should have no reflectiveness to it at all as it is should have a satin like finish, your rim does look correct as it should be square and sharp. these 1964 sms Lincolns are rare and i did get to look at one some years ago at a coin show here in PA but it was not graded either so i was still not sure it was but it sure did have the look of the real 64 sms. Your coin should be looked at by an expert, that way you know for sure. very nice Lincoln though, if it is not a 1964 Lincoln sms, One thing sure it was a well struck coin and probably done on worn proof dies.