1992 p planchet error

I found this Lincoln cent with a curving Arc on the reverse that starts out at the first column and continues under STA of STATES.
I know the first inclination is to say PSD but the fairly deep and incuse Arc barely is visible on top of the devices. I'm finding it difficult to explain but where it is visible it is distorted and smooth from being struck by the dies.
I believe the arc (from the rim of another planchette?) was on the planchette before entering the Coining chamber and being struck by the dies.
I just hope my images are clear enough the show what I'm seeing in hand.
Thanks for looking. Cliff

Sure looks like that to me. Let's see what the experts say.

Cool... It may be a struck thru... Something like a wire... There is damage over the rim at the T of STATES... Due to the circ wear it is a little difficult to tell 100%... You also have either a die chip or piece of extraneous material on the NW corner of the E... It does not appear to be a counter clash Type 1 - http://www.maddieclashes.com/type-i-counterclash/ or Type 2 - http://www.maddieclashes.com/type-ii-counter-clash/

Need to see a close up of the obverse opposite the anomaly.

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Originally Posted by jfines69

Cool... It may be a struck thru... Something like a wire... There is damage over the rim at the T of STATES... Due to the circ wear it is a little difficult to tell 100%... You also have either a die chip or piece of extraneous material on the NW corner of the E... It does not appear to be a counter clash Type 1 - http://www.maddieclashes.com/type-i-counterclash/ or Type 2 - http://www.maddieclashes.com/type-ii-counter-clash/

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Thanks Jim, but definitely not struck through as it is NOT as deep where it intersects the letters. And where it does intersect the letters there is a light, non-straight line where the metal has been moved from the strike (metal of the letters).

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Originally Posted by Roller

Need to see a close up of the obverse opposite the anomaly.

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Thanks George.
I'll have to dig it out to get that close up since I first tried to post this about three weeks ago.
(I forgot to include the Error title twice so it kept going into "Auto saved" without the images. I didn't realize what I was doing incorrectly.)

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Originally Posted by retiredcopper

Sure looks like that to me. Let's see what the experts say.

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Thanks RC. I'm with you, let's see they say.

Interesting find Cliff! I think a planchet with an existing anomaly like this would cause the devices to be weakly struck like the ST of States. But, at the Memorial that doesn't look the same, the anomaly looks deeper into the devices. What a brain twister!

Looking at the obv there appears to be no indication of damage or weakness... Also if the line were on the planchet prior to strike the letters should have still formed properly??? Not 100% sure tho... I looked again but I am still leaning toward struck through with circ wear!!!

Cliff, if you can, take your pic of the reverse or take another picture, crop it as perfectly as you can, then go to "paint" and resize to 80 pixels and post the pic.

Sorry for the delayed reply to all. Work has been interfering with fun.:(
(Down a guy and having to fill in to try to keep on schedule.)

Viv, you're on the right track because there is some metal from the struck devices filling in the incuse area (from the pressure of the strike).

Jim, definitely not a strike through. May need to send to you for better images and clarification.

Jon, I'll try your suggestion a little later when more time is available.

George (Roller), First image below is for you.

Meanwhile, here are some more images taken at night. (darkness at night seems to help somewhat, less ambient light messing with the phone I think)

And of course, Thanks for all comments. Cliff

Fairly good follow up pics... A little blurry but not to bad... Except for were the item of interest crosses the devices the edges are nice and sharp like a struck thru would be... However, I'm old but easy :LOL_Hair: Send it my way if you want to... I'll get the best pics I can for ya!!!

It is looking like a struck through. It is not PSD and is not a incomplete clip. If there is an other possibility, I'm ready to concede.

Wouldn't the depth of a strike through be a uniform depth?
In other words, the deepest part of the anomaly should be a consistent depth if it was struck through.
This anomaly is not as deep where it intersects the devices. Wouldn't this mean the metal flowed into this area when struck by the dies? Less metal in these areas to fill the devices because the metal was lacking when the dies struck.

I'm thinking it seems more like a struck through than a scratch on the planchet before strike.

If it was a scratch then from the strike I think it would close up most in the fields and least in the high spots (tops of letters) leaving the deepest groove through the letters (like planchet lines and defects show best in high areas on cents like the shoulder or flat area of the hair). This coin seems opposite, it looks like the line is deepest in the fields and less deep crossing the letters.

Just adding,

If it's struck through like a sliver of metal or wire that's an even diameter, then the depth might be constant in the fields but over a letter it's covering more design per length of the sliver/wire since it needs to conform to the sides of the raised letter plus the width so it might be less deep on the letter and least deep right where the letter intersects the field because that sliver/wire is stretching to follow the edges of the letter.

Thinking out loud, does that make sense?

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Originally Posted by GrumpyEd

Just adding,

If it's struck through like a sliver of metal or wire that's an even diameter, then the depth might be constant in the fields but over a letter it's covering more design per length of the sliver/wire since it needs to conform to the sides of the raised letter plus the width so it might be less deep on the letter and least deep right where the letter intersects the field because that sliver/wire is stretching to follow the edges of the letter.

Thinking out loud, does that make sense?

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Yes it makes sense to me!!!

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Originally Posted by GrumpyEd

Just adding,

If it's struck through like a sliver of metal or wire that's an even diameter, then the depth might be constant in the fields but over a letter it's covering more design per length of the sliver/wire since it needs to conform to the sides of the raised letter plus the width so it might be less deep on the letter and least deep right where the letter intersects the field because that sliver/wire is stretching to follow the edges of the letter.

Thinking out loud, does that make sense?

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Thanks for your input Ed. And yes, what your are saying makes sense for a softer more pliable object (thread or cloth). But tensile stength and tension of the wire while being pressed against the surface of the planchet would not allow much deflection of the wire into the die cavity, on the narrow distance of a letter. There might be some but not much. The sides would also stay relatively parallel and not show much deformity.

A rim hitting the planchet before the strike could create an incuse arc (and the ends would taper off as it exits the surface of the planchet) similar to end of the arc at the column on mine. Wouldn't a "struck through a piece of wire" show an incuse area with parallel sides along the entire length of the anomaly, even at the end of the wire?


I think we are in agreement on the following:
1)The incuse area appears to be caused by a dense rigid object, probably metal.
2)There is some metal flow or distortion on the bottom and sides where the incuse area intersects the letters of the coin.

I believe our differences lie in the appearance of the metal once it flows into and through the intersection of the anomaly and the letters.

My belief is that the error is determined by the metal flow at the intersection of two incuse areas (letters of the die and incuse area on the planchet) as opposed to the metal flow at the intersection of one incuse area and the metal/wire object.

(I'm not trying to beat his horse to death and I hope I'm not sounding argumentative or difficult because of my lack of communication skills and thought process. I'm trying to make sense of what I'm seeing and have learned while being a part of this forum. It is frustrating and I apologize if I have come off this way because everyone here has been so helpful sharing their knowledge and time.)
Thanks again, Cliff

Cliff,

I know what you mean.
Sort of based on how hard the thing it's struck through is. What I said makes the most sense if it's a sliver of metal. If it's a harder metal wire then it might be a deeper groove crossing the letter.

That's why this one is tough to be sure about. :)

This indeed looks like a struck through. A couple of things to remember though. Even a thread leaves an impression so there are many possibilities here. What caused this struck through is unknown but variables do exist. Mike Diamond once die an article about a struck through filament on a steel cent I had found. The depth of the filament was different on some parts of the coin. We can think outside the box a bit and assume that whatever it was in the striking chamber was the same thickness throughout, but that may not be the case. The different 'hills and valley's' of the die, along with the striking pressure will determine how weak or strong the struck through is. We can try to guess what the item was, but in the big scheme of things, this is a struck through where we will never know what was struck. It is a very nice example though. Well worth holding on to.

Thanks to all for your patience and sharing your expertise and knowledge.
This one will get labeled as a strike through.

If memory serves me correct the strike pressure is 80 tons with a production rate of 12 coins per second??? Even a cotton string at that pressure becomes nearly as hard as the copper... Like Bob said - definitely one to keep... Do you still want me to get pics for you???

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Originally Posted by jfines69

If memory serves me correct the strike pressure is 80 tons with a production rate of 12 coins per second??? Even a cotton string at that pressure becomes nearly as hard as the copper... Like Bob said - definitely one to keep... Do you still want me to get pics for you???

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Yes please. Your images are always top notch and make it easy to see.

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Originally Posted by Petespockets55

Yes please. Your images are always top notch and make it easy to see.

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Any time Cliff!!!

Cliff sent me this coin to look at... Very cool... Best I can tell it is a struck thru and probably a piece of copper... There is a retained piece from the tip of the 1st A of STATES to the rim... I used pointers to show the edges on both sides... It even has die abrasions across it... The rest of the area where the piece fell out runs down well into C1... I did some close up pics for ya'll... Notice how sharp the edges are along the entire length... There is also no apparent damage in the canyon... The only edge areas that are not sharp are where they cross the devices... Thanks Cliff for letting me look at and get pics of this coin... I appreciate it!!!

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Originally Posted by jfines69

Cliff sent me this coin to look at... Very cool... Best I can tell it is a struck thru and probably a piece of copper... There is a retained piece from the tip of the 1st A of STATES to the rim... I used pointers to show the edges on both sides... It even has die abrasions across it... The rest of the area where the piece fell out runs down well into C1... I did some close up pics for ya'll... Notice how sharp the edges are along the entire length... There is also no apparent damage in the canyon... The only edge areas that are not sharp are where they cross the devices... Thanks Cliff for letting me look at and get pics of this coin... I appreciate it!!!

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Very nice work and pics Jim!! Cliff, that is a nice struck through!

Thank you very much. Superb images again Jim.
Very clearly shows the piece left in the area between the rim and the first A.
(Don't know why I didn't see that originally with the coin in hand. Sheesh! :tinysmile_hmm_t:)

Great pics Jim, you even got some MD in the pics.

Struck through a soft metal made the most sense, neat that a piece stayed put.

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Originally Posted by Petespockets55

Thank you very much. Superb images again Jim.
Very clearly shows the piece left in the area between the rim and the first A.
(Don't know why I didn't see that originally with the coin in hand. Sheesh! :tinysmile_hmm_t:)

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I could not see it to well with the loupe either... Wasn't sure until I was able to zoom in!!!

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Originally Posted by GrumpyEd

Great pics Jim, you even got some MD in the pics.

Struck through a soft metal made the most sense, neat that a piece stayed put.

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I forgot to mention the MD... Thanks Ed!!!

Now that is a cool struck through! Great pics Jim and very nice find Cliff!

Thanks Viv.
My first partial retained struck through. I really liked you struck through a staple you found (if I remember correctly) but I can't remember if it was retained.