Look how thick this vertical bar on the L is. The I is also extra thick, not sure about the B. Is this doubled? I compared it to other 2017s and its def thicker on those 2 letters but does that mean its doubled or has something else caused this?
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Look how thick this vertical bar on the L is. The I is also extra thick, not sure about the B. Is this doubled? I compared it to other 2017s and its def thicker on those 2 letters but does that mean its doubled or has something else caused this?
This looks like the same anomaly I've been wanting to ask Will about. It seems like the LI is smashed and there's a lot of die scratches there. We see the same thing on Shields on the last digit of the date. Those scratches could be from polishing the die but that wouldn't cause the devices to look flattened. I have saved some Shields that look to be from the same die and those scratches are not the same on all of them. Could be that the die was in service and struck some coins, then got cleaned and struck some more and I just happen to have the before and afters. But... still, that doesn't explain the smashed devices unless they are somehow ejection related or post strike rinse related or something. I just have seen it so much that I don't think it's PSD.
Dearing, I am going to say this is a case of older dies and die deterioration doubling (DDD) based on the pronounced die flow lines between the L and rim. DDD also makes some devices and details enlarged and even kind of blurry.
It is my understanding die flow lines are produced as the die is used. As the metal from the Planchets flow across the surface of the die, these lines are produced. The more coins that are produced, the stronger the lines.
They are strongest towards the rim and "point" towards the center from the rim.
Cliff, I've finally had some coffee and I hope my thinker is on straight! It seems to me that these lines are different from die flow lines because of the direction they are going and you can see them go through the devices, and they appear in different areas on different coins. I've seen these lines on Memorial cents (but those devices don't appear to be smashed) and a lot more on Shield cents (and those devices do look smashed). I keep thinking that die polishing is the culprit, and maybe the way the devices appear to be smashed is something else entirely different. Then my mind draws a blank ________.
Jim has said something about this anomaly before too! It was a 2016P and the 6 is smashed... but I can't find the thread and I forgot what he said :tongue:
I should have mentioned the first image as showing the die flow lines. Stronger at the rim and "pointing" to the center.Quote:
Originally Posted by VAB2013
The second image is showing roller lines I believe (parallel lines going NW to the SE). Are these the ones you are talking about?
The weak letters can be caused low striking pressure and/or poor adjustment of the dies in relation to each other during striking.
Yes Cliff, that is exactly what I was referring to. They don't really look like roller lines that we've seen on older Memorials. I'm going to pay more attention to them because I can't remember if the lines are on the reverse... I just don't recall them being on the reverse. And also whether the smashed looking LI and last digit of the date is always accompanied with these lines.. or not. Have some more homework to do! It very well could be low striking pressure/poor adjustment of the dies causing the weak/smashed look!Quote:
Originally Posted by Petespockets55
I think the larger looking LI is due to deterioration and circulation like Cliff said but I could be wrong. I know we've talked about these lines you're referring to Viv but have never heard anyone say what they were.
Jon, they look more like polishing lines to me but different. I'm wondering if the mint is using some other kind of polishing device or technique that's making these lines. These lines are thinner looking, there's more of them and they are all going in the same direction.Quote:
Originally Posted by makecents
The LI probably is die deterioration and circulation wear and more than likely it's just a coincidence that where we see the lines, the devices are smashed but not related to each other.
I have some Shields set aside to send to Will... they are all from the same die and what was puzzling to me is the lines are not in the same place. Will said to send them on but then he got busy writing Coin World articles and I got busy with work so I haven't sent them yet.
I have let this post go for a while and I am sorry I did. I think we are making a whole lot about nothing here. There are many things that could lead to a little extra thickness. I believe in this case, we are referencing something like the 1982 or 1984 coins where there was extra thickness of these letters. However, there were also other indicators on those coins. I would be very suspect of only two letters showing minor extra thickness, and I would also be suspect on devices on the rim like the LI and the last digit of the date. Die flow lines do NOT necessarily flow the exact way on all coins. We have to get into the science of the metals and or mixtures for this.
Here is something everybody can do and that is to pay closer attention to the L and I of Lincoln cents. I am sure you will begin to notice a trend, and that is that many of these coins will have anomalies with the LI that make them look thicker. A lot of those are from being in a rolling machine. Other changes are the result of die deterioration as noted. Please let's not get so involved in these micro anomalies that it takes us away from the joy of the search and we 'guess' at what caused them.
Bob, well said and thank you for touching on and clarifying the direction of the die flow lines. I thought I read they generaly form from the center towards the rim.
Thank you Bob for keeping us on track! I'm sorry for being so long winded about these scratches/lines... sometimes I can be such a bull-headed Taurus :|