Original Bank Rolls "OBW" Buying Guide rev1

I've had a couple requests for my considerations when buying OBW rolls. I've written a bunch of them down in various posts, and eventually will pull them all together, but here are a few of them I pulled together today. Comments welcome.

OBW Cent Roll buying guide

1) Don't listen to anything the dealer says about the rolls. Make your judgement based on the rolls themselves.
2) Bank names on the rolls command a premium. No bank name, no premium over tubed roll price. Some banks are more valuable than others, for instance regional banks. Some banks reduce value, for instance Cleveland, because so many early 60's OBW were opened and then re-wrapped with 50's or even 40's or 30's coins.
3) Multiples of a given roll increases value, but usually result in lower asking price. This is a great combo for the buyer.
4) Check the end coins. One or both should have at least some toning, dust, scratches, fingerprints, etc. Full-brilliant is a red flag unless you can personally verify they were stored in near-perfect conditions.
5) Check the condition of the wrapper. Ends should not have any fuzziness, except maybe on high points where they were scuffed. Fuzziness usually means a re-wrap. Conversely, perfect and tight crimps usually mean a re-wrap as well. In general you are looking for fresh-looking but slightly messy crimps. Make sure there are no water stains or other nasty stains on the wrapper.
6) Check the characteristics of the printing on the wrapper, font, etc to be sure the wrapper is of the correct vintage. If you have time and find an unusual bank, make sure it was in business when the coins were minted. Google is your friend.


If all the above checks out, then you may have real OBW rolls in your hands.

For pricing, I usually allow 1.5x-2x premium vs CDN bid on rolls that check out per the above. Some dates command even more premium. Note there are certain dates that you simply won't find in OBW and should NOT pay a premium for. A few of these are:

Anything pre-1934 (99.9% probable they won't pass the above 6 tests anyway)
1943-D (the search for RPM#1 decimated OBW supply)
1944-D (the search for the two OMM's decimated OBW supply)
1946-S (there still may be some around but be very careful, most have been opened for the OMM)
1955-P (no, no, no, no, no)
1956-D (still available but again be very careful, most have been opened for RPM#8)

Ray

Great guide, Ray. This will really come in handy.

Thanks Ray, I also made a copy for my files in case I can't find this post

Thanks from me also Ray. Great that you shared your experiences on rolls. These kinds of insights can only come from years of experience and observation. I have 60s rolls that I know are genuine OBW that clearly exhibit the slightly messy crimp you refer to. Some rolls even feel a little loose, but it's hard to really put that into words. You really nailed it!

Great summary on OBW purchasing Ray. Thanks a million for sharing these facts. I will use them when I see any sellers offering OBW rolls.

Lucien

Great info. Thanks!

Thanks so much for taking the time to write that out! A valuable guide for all of us! I don't buy many OBW's, but they are sure nicer to search than the circulated stuff I usually get! I have done well with modern OBW's, but the few older ones I have bought recently were very likely re-wraps as 95% of the coins were all facing the same direction when I opened them:(. I will be more careful and use your tips from now on!

Thanks Ray for the info. I also have a question for you. I received a obw of denver coins, that had wrappers from Albany New York. Its a year when Denver cents almost tripled Philly cents. Is it possible that the mint would ship Denver coins to NY for wrapping ? This wasnt a bank wrap, its from a wrapping company. I did crack it open, the enders were dirty and weathered and the 48 others had brown edge rims, with beautiful lustered coins. I got a good price on it. Scratch that. I got a great price on it.

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Originally Posted by Clutchy

Thanks Ray for the info. I also have a question for you. I received a obw of denver coins, that had wrappers from Albany New York. Its a year when Denver cents almost tripled Philly cents. Is it possible that the mint would ship Denver coins to NY for wrapping ? This wasnt a bank wrap, its from a wrapping company. I did crack it open, the enders were dirty and weathered and the 48 others had brown edge rims, with beautiful lustered coins. I got a good price on it. Scratch that. I got a great price on it.

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It seems rare that Philadelphia coins were sent West, but I've often seen Denver coins from East coast banks. I've even seen San Francisco coins in East coast banks. I don't know the official explanation, except perhaps there are (or were) a LOT more banks on the East coast and it may have been easier at times to get coins from Denver than Philadelphia.

I just picked up three rolls of 1993-D rolled in plastic shrink-wrap style rolls that I know were distributed from the Atlanta Fed branch to a local bank here in Georgia. The woman I picked them up from worked at the bank and put aside three of the rolls. Says she has more rolls of Cents stashed away. I'm hoping she finds them.

Do these qualify as OBW from a "contents of the roll" perspective? Tape is so old it crumbles and the tubes are so old that I can feel ribs on the outside of each roll where the plastic has tightened in on the coins.

I opened one roll, but to do so I had to freeze it over night and then chip the tube off of the coins. Once opened they were PRISTINE though. How long ago do you think they were rolled up?

Steve

I love those old double-ended tubes. They were popular in the early 60's. I'm not sure how long ago they were discontinued, but I don't think you've been able to buy them for at least 20 years. Very likely these were rolled by a collector directly from a bank bag before 1964.

The coins in the roll I opened are immaculate. They were obviously stored properly all this time. I still haven't searched them. Should be interesting to see what I find in that roll.

I've found similar immaculate coins inside old "Meghrig" brand tubes. They are a lot like the double-ended tubes as they also shrink over time and seal the coins inside. I think this is why they are still immaculate, since no one has been able to remove them for many years, likely since they were originally rolled. They're pretty easy to open, though I've socked away most of the ones I've come across for future cherrypicking...Ray

One other tid bit I use - IF the roll has a bank name, do an internet search. Some times you can 1) verify its a real bank that existed at one time, See what if any merger occurred and thus would "date" your rolls . In other words, if the bank went out of business in 1964 and your holding 1970 rolls, you have to wonder.

WS

To answer your inquiry Steve- No, those wouldn't be considered Original BANKwrapped Rolls- Original, no doubt, but OBW refers to rolls sealed by a bank wrapping machine in paper or shrinkwrap. I'd not hesitate to buy those rolls, but I know I couldn't sell them described as OBWs.

That was some real usefull info!! Makes alot of sense but never would have thought it. Thanks JIM

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Originally Posted by Chugly

Thanks so much for taking the time to write that out! A valuable guide for all of us! I don't buy many OBW's, but they are sure nicer to search than the circulated stuff I usually get! I have done well with modern OBW's, but the few older ones I have bought recently were very likely re-wraps as 95% of the coins were all facing the same direction when I opened them:(. I will be more careful and use your tips from now on!

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That's one thing you can use to determine if a roll is original once you've opened it. If it was truly machine-wrapped, there should be approximately 50/50 heads and tails in the roll. I've had a few rolls that had as imbalanced as 60/40 (20/30) that I knew were original, but I'd say beyond this and it's a re-wrap.

Now, here's another thing to look for once you've opened the roll. The coins should be randomly rotated. Even if you have 50/50 heads/tails, if the coins are all lined up in rotation, it's a rewrap.

Finally, I've never seen more than 3 coins in a row of heads/tails in an original roll. I suppose it could happen, so if you get a roll that has 4 or 5 heads in a row it might be original, but odds are against it. If the 4 or 5 coins are all rotated similar direction, you have a rewrap.

These are things you can use to determine after the fact if a roll is original. They are NOT sufficient, because unscrupulous folks also know these things and might rewrap with the coins all jumbled and mixed to avoid suspicion. But if they are not jumbled and mixed, you know what you have...

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Originally Posted by WaterSport

One other tid bit I use - IF the roll has a bank name, do an internet search. Some times you can 1) verify its a real bank that existed at one time, See what if any merger occurred and thus would "date" your rolls . In other words, if the bank went out of business in 1964 and your holding 1970 rolls, you have to wonder.

WS

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Note that the bank name has to be exact as well. If you are holding a roll of 1943-S OBW cents, which seem to be more common today than they were a few years ago (bad sign), and it says "Mellon National Bank of New York City" but your search shows that the only similarly-named bank which was in business in 1943 was named "Mellon National Bank of New York" it is not a match. It has to be PERFECT because banks NEVER make a mistake when it comes to their name.

ray, I have been trying to win one of these auctions for the past few nights

http://www.ebay.com/itm/121094814629...8#ht_918wt_917

After reading your post. That has more fuz all over the ends. What is your take on it.

That's a classic scam, all you'll find is common date circ wheats inside. Those rolls didn't even exist in 1909. Run, run fast and far from that listing.

Thanks:
Glad I stuck to my guns and would not go over a certain price I set for myself. Well good now I can use my energy focusing on other things Like figuring out how to post pictures in threads that are all on one page. And again thanks.

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Originally Posted by jhcons

ray, I have been trying to win one of these auctions for the past few nights
...
After reading your post. That has more fuz all over the ends. What is your take on it.

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Well, if I stated my opinion of these types of rolls I might be booted off the group for my bad language...

What I can say is these are not OBW rolls. There is no question. These are "fantasy rolls" made up for folks hoping for treasure. That said, I won't recommend against buying them, as they might be full of BU 1909VDBs for all I know. Just be aware that these are not OBW and thus can't be trusted to contain what they appear to contain...

There are seven of those rolls all with tails/tails and VDBs on both ends and no other rolls.
It's amazing how many fantasy rolls are always listed, always they have a rare coin or silver dime or something on the end, I've even seen some with a gold dollar on one end barely held in place by one edge of the paper.

People like bidding on "grab bags" so this stuff will always be selling even though everything points to them being set up.

I read probably 10 pages of his feedback or the other person that is selling them also and for the most part feedback was ok but he had on average 2 negative feedbacks per page of 50 I think. Those saying they were crap. The other 98 % said they were great. No million dollar coins but were nice. Glad I shied away. Think I tried it three nights in a row but would not go over $35.00.

I don't know if it is this seller or another one but I know a person who has purchased several of these. They got them for wildly different prices. I think one sold for $70, and the other for $700. Well, guess what? The $700 roll had a Gold Dollar in it, plus a couple other interesting coins. The $70 had a few nice Indian Cents. What I think is the seller (I am not accusing the seller linked to in this post, as I don't think it was the same one my associate purchased from) builds the roll up based on the final selling price, and tries to give some decent value in the roll so that the buyers don't come after him for fraud. It's not a bad way of doing business, especially for the treasure hunting crowd, but I guarantee you won't make any money off that sort of scam. The seller probably always puts in 50% or whatever of actual value based on final selling price of the auction. This is just a supposition on my part based on a couple of actual lots I know about, and I may be wrong, but it seems to fit...

Awesome guide for beginners, well written and easy to understand. Thank you.

Great guide and easy to follow, thanks for the info, I never looked at any of detail you mention on your post, maybe that's why I never got anything good before.

Great advice I have just learned a ton,Thank you:bigsmile:

Anyone have a link to OBW prices?

In a large Cent collection I just picked up with there are over 200 rolls in Nickel Tube Boxes marked OBW. The rolls are in nickel tubes. Three of the rolls are neat but I don't think there OBW's. One is a 1944-D 25 PENNIES roll and 2 1959's (1 P & 1 D) that look sweet. The 59's are stamped "RK STIMPLER" Collection Boston, Mass and each has a ID number ie 040058 & 044077.

Most of the time you can just use GS roll pricing. I don't think anyone publishes specific OBW pricing. If the rolls are truly OBW, and at least meet the criteria at beginning of this thread, then they can command a premium. I usually figure 1.5-2x GS bid for true OBW for typical dates. Dates with more/valuable varieties are probably worth a bit more than this.

That 44-D roll is very likely not OBW. I have never found one that was a true OBW. All have been searched.

RK Stimpler was a marketing ploy of someone in the 90's. Not sure who. I have a few with this marking, and have opened some. They were not OBW, but they were nice rolls nevertheless.

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Originally Posted by ray_parkhurst

Most of the time you can just use GS roll pricing. I don't think anyone publishes specific OBW pricing. If the rolls are truly OBW, and at least meet the criteria at beginning of this thread, then they can command a premium. I usually figure 1.5-2x GS bid for true OBW for typical dates. Dates with more/valuable varieties are probably worth a bit more than this.

That 44-D roll is very likely not OBW. I have never found one that was a true OBW. All have been searched.

RK Stimpler was a marketing ploy of someone in the 90's. Not sure who. I have a few with this marking, and have opened some. They were not OBW, but they were nice rolls nevertheless.

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Thanks Ray, this collection has some very interesting coins. It also had 6 Bricks and ~ 150 extra rolls of 2009 Lincoln Bicentennials :D

I was in LA on Halloween and picked up some 1955-S OBW rolls. Many of the rolls were pretty rough, and some had clearly been "dated", ie the wrapping pulled back near the date to check date and mintmark. I selected 5 rolls from a group of perhaps 15 that I thought were good enough to put away. 1955-S is a good year for OBW rolls as many were put away from banks across the US, so you can put together an interesting OBW roll set from a wide variety of banks. They are also instructive for showing what a "real" OBW roll looks like from this era. The ones I bought had clearly been handled quite a lot in their 59-year lifetime, but given the physical evidence I am 99.99% sure they have not been opened or searched. These rolls also were accompanied by several tubed rolls with coins having the same characteristics as the OBW, so it appeared the owner opened a few, checked them out, and decided not to open any more. Here are pics showing all the 5 rolls together from top and both ends. They are from the California Bank, whose Head Office was in LA. Hopefully these are interesting to folks as examples of rolls that are truly original, yet don't have that "clean tight-wrapped" look so common on fake rolls.

http://i943.photobucket.com/albums/a...v2014013_1.jpg
http://i943.photobucket.com/albums/a...v2014018_2.jpg
http://i943.photobucket.com/albums/a...v2014019_3.jpg

Great Images as always, thanks.

Those rolls look in good shape also... I would bet the coins inside are in excellent shape!!!

I wrote the below text in response to another thread, but I thought it might be useful in this one as well...

I never wear gloves when searching rolls. I have tried cotton, latex, and nitrile and have had more mishaps wearing any of these types of gloves than I have with my bare hands. Of course I always wash my hands before doing a roll search, and wait a few minutes after washing for the water to evaporate. I have a small mirror at my desk, and if when I touch it I leave any steam around my fingerprint then my hands are still too wet. I should not leave a fingerprint on the mirror either. And of course I only touch the coins by the edges.

For the last 20 years, my process for tubed rolls starts by viewing the edges of the coins, and the visible sides of the end coins. For original rolls that have been properly stored, the edges of all coins should be fairly uniform. The end coins are often not the coins, or at least not the side of the coins, that were exposed if the roll came from OBW. Most folks will put a "nice" coin on top and often on bottom of the roll to make the roll look "better". The quality of this end coin can tell you a lot about what to expect from the rest of the roll.

I continue the process by carefully dumping the the roll out on a velvet-pad tray, spreading the coins evenly across the tray to maximize visibility. If the roll is original and unsearched, the coins will be in a very random orientation vs one another. No two coins will have the same orientation. I pick each coin up by the edges, rotate them so they are all in same orientation, and stack them in 10-15 coin stacks. Any taller and they fall over too easily. I stack the heads and tails in separate stacks and note how many of each I end up with. Original unsearched rolls will have a nearly 50/50 split heads/tails.

I then start the actual searching by viewing each stack of coins using my stereo microscope. I use a Bausch & Lomb Stereo-1 pod with 10x eyepieces, so total magnification is 10x. I have a ringlight for even illumination. I search in multiple passes. First I look for repunched mintmarks and any doubled dies that show in the date. I put anything I find aside in separate stacks and continue searching. Next I look for doubling in the other devices; for die breaks like BIEs; for any lamination or other errors; and for VEDS coins. Finally I look at the reverses for double dies, errors, etc.

The coins I don't find anything interesting on I place back into stacks, and then view them without magnification, segregating them into 6 groupings: Gem; Choice; Average; Cull; Roll-Ends; and Toners. These get placed into their own separate stacks. If I am searching only a single roll, the Gems go into 2x2 or Lighthouse snap-fit holders. The roll ends go into an ongoing Roll-End roll. Toners go into small snap tubes I get from TAP plastics (yellow tubes hold 15 Cents; clear tubes hold ~30 Cents). Culls are coins with heavy fingerprinting, spotting, damage, etc and go into a box in my desk drawer. Eventually I will spend them, or so I tell myself. Choice and Average coins go into tubes, awaiting more of the same until a full roll is completed.

In this process, I have handled each coin perhaps a dozen times. I am careful to touch only the edges, and never either too lightly (to avoid dropping the coin) not too tightly (to avoid wrap-around to the rims). I have rolls of Gems and Toners that I put away 20 years ago that are as pristine as the day I first searched them. Unfortunately I also have rolls that have degraded, but not due to my handling of them. Most of the degraded rolls have white spots from dust, which is my nemesis, or possibly moisture droplets from not being careful not to breathe on them. Dust and water droplets are far bigger enemies to copper than is handling of coins, as long as your hands are clean and dry and you only touch the edges.

The subject of bank rolls is of interest to me, since I have two that have tails showing on both ends and I've never knew what to do with them without opening them and gently turn one end around with a tooth pick, or something more clever than that, which I have not thought of yet.
Any experience on this situation?

OBW rolls have value above similar rolls in tubes because they might contain interesting or valuable coins such as varieties, errors, beautiful toners, high grade gems, or some combination of these. In other words, they are a mystery, and may contain treasure, so they appeal to treasure hunters and command a premium. Tails-tails rolls add another dimension to the treasure hunt, in that not only could the coins inside be valuable, but they could be an extra valuable date/mm. So a tails-tails roll commands an additional premium due to the potential of it being an expensive roll.

But what if you own one of these, and don't know what's inside? Your options are:

- Open it and find out. This gives you the thrill of the treasure hunt, but once the roll is opened its mystery value is gone. Yet it may actually contain something cool.
- Sell it. You can market it on eBay as a great mystery roll. How much it sells for depends on its characteristics (bank, wrapper markings, quality of wrapping, etc...all the things discussed in this thread) and how well you hype it up. But if you sell it, how will you feel when the buyer finds something really cool and worth 10x the roll price?
- Kick the can down the road and put the roll away for a rainy day. But you're just procrastinating...

I personally like to open such rolls, since I care more about the treasure than the potential reduction in value. That said, I have many, many tails-tails rolls sitting and waiting for me to open them, so I am also a procrastinator.

Thanks for your guidance.
I opened one and it was a roll of 1968-S.
Thanks!