How to determine die states?

[georoxx]

No, it means they had a full run.

OK. Thanks. I assumed something incorrectly. (That they ONLY were known in LDS... not that the run lasted LONG enough to still be producing "cookies" that late into the run.)

Now, if only Chris hadn't eaten all the Oreos... Wait - That's a different thread.

-George

Thanks guys.

PS: This is an informative thread. Thanks to all.

[willbrooks]

Nice explanation, Chuck. So would you say these cookie anomalies would be from diet deterioration?

Mod: Please feel free to delete this post when all of the actual useful information has been posted.

[coppercoins]

Ahh, yes...it is generally safe to assume that if something is known in LDS, that all the other die states previous to LDS exist for the die as well.

I have seen a number of dies, however, where not one coin is known previous to MDS. For what reason, I do not know.

Still yet, I know of a number of rather scarce die varieties that are not known beyond EMDS or MDS. Stands to chance that the dies were removed from service before a full die run.

While die state can certainly help to arrive at a decent educated guess as to the scarcity of some issues, die state is far more frequently used to map what happened to a die through its life. An example:

Any given die could be substituted here, doesn't matter, and once again this is hypothetical in nature...

You get a coin with an RPM you recognize and dig through your collection to see if you have a match. You find that there is a deep die gouge in a particular spot on the new coin that you seem to remember. You find another coin with the same die gouge and the same doubling on the mintmark. You check the position of the mintmark and everything adds up. You look around on the coin and find a decent size die crack on the new coin and a faint die crack in the same place on the other coin. Upon further investigation you find that your new coin has a clash mark that your other coin does not have. Your new coin is barely edging over LDS, and your other coin is MDS.

It would be safe to assume that both coins were struck with the same die. Your existing coin was minted before your new coin. A die crack was barely evident in your earlier coin, and in the later coin the die crack grew substantially. It's pretty safe to assume the die didn't last a lot longer because of the pace that the crack grew. By die state you can tell that somewhere around 100,000 coins separate your two, and the first was minted about 60,000 coins into the run. You can answer for what happened to the die approximately 160,000 coins into the die's life, but knowing they last around 1.2 million strikes, this die probably didn't make it all the way.

You also know that somewhere between the 60,000th coin and the 160,000th coin the die clashed with the other die it was paired with at the time leaving marks behind.

All of this can be derived from looking at a couple of coins from the same die struck at different times. This is where "die stage" comes from. Dies enter a new "die stage" every time they pick up a new marker that is evident through continuous strikes from that point forward. Die state itself can be used as a stage, but more frequently stages are specific to markers.

So the die stage chart for this die might look like this:

Stage A : EDS - reverse is EDS.
Stage B : MDS - die crack beginning. Reverse is MDS
Stage C : MDS - die crack a little larger, clash marks. - Reverse is MDS.
Stage D : Reverse die changed. Reverse is EDS.
Stage E : LDS - Larger die crack, clash marks worn away. Reverse is MDS.
Stage F : LDS - Very large die crack, new die crack in another area. Reverse is LDS.

In my hypothetical example above, we have six stages, lettered A through F. Note that the die state does not change with every stage...it is essentially independent from die stage except that later stages cannot be earlier die states (kinda obvious why). Note also that simply changing the opposite die can be a stage marker.

In essence, die state is ALL about the AGE of the die. Die Stages are about the markers on the die. The two are obviously related, but are independent from each other in most cases.

MOST references have gotten away from using the term "die stage" because it is too easily confused with "die state" - most simply use "stage" now.

Coppercoins.com does not use die stages because back when the site was developed it would have required too much web space, programming, and database power to list all of them. Some dies have 15 known stages. We decided to keep it simple with EDS, MDS, and LDS, and mention all the stage markers that occurred within the die states in the notes - it has served us rather well, but is undoubtedly a bit more simplified than it could be. Perhaps over-simplified to some people who collect their dies by stage.

[coppercoins]

I can see from the detail of my posts in this thread that this thread might not be suited to the beginner collector just getting involved and trying to learn the difference between machine doubling and doubled dies. This topic is rather advanced in nature, so must be explained in a rather advanced manner.

Still yet, though, it does show the amount of study that goes into figuring out the tiny nuances and small details that tell us what happened at the mint. It's never as simple as you might think until you start picking apart all the pieces under a microscope. it is this part of numismatics that fascinated me as a youth, and exactly where I headed as a researcher. I wanted the FULL challenge, and with Lincoln cents I definitely got what I bargained for.

While an understanding of everything I lined out in this thread is not necessary to the casual collector, at least a general understanding of it must be in play when you are trying to identify obscure die varieties. Most of the details we give on coppercoins.com, while dummied down in nature to a certain degree, give enough information for anyone who has a general understanding of die state and stages the ability to identify most dies most of the time.

We are continuously working to add more information to the die marker information on coppercoins.com to make the process easier, and with the new version of the website we plan to add a lot more marker images where they can be of help. Back in the early life of the website, we would often not publish minor marker images to save space, but now that space is not necessarily an issue, we plan to go back through the dies and add all the photos we can to help collectors properly identify their coins.

[Maineman750]

I put it in For the Beginer because it never hurts for newbies to read..and have a reference to return to...plus we don't have a For the Seasoned Collector Forum..yet

[cworley]

Thank you,I have been trying to find this info for quite a while,I wrote it all down in my comp book. The more knowledge I can obtain, the more confident I feel in my endeavor.