Trail Dies feedback/questions thread

**mustbebob** · 07-05-2017

I do not know which (or even if both) are used to finish business strike Lincoln cent dies.

Just a point to be made here. We have proof dies with trails as well.

http://www.traildies.com/u-s-proof-c...th-trail-dies/

**jfines69** · 07-05-2017

Originally Posted by mustbebob

Just a point to be made here. We have proof dies with trails as well.

http://www.traildies.com/u-s-proof-c...th-trail-dies/

And the plot thickens... Or is that just my head

Thanks Bob I forgot all about the proof dies!!!

**jallengomez** · 07-05-2017

Originally Posted by mustbebob

Just a point to be made here. We have proof dies with trails as well.

http://www.traildies.com/u-s-proof-c...th-trail-dies/

My personal belief is that somewhere around 1980 the mint started using the same or a similar polishing method on business strikes that was previously used on proofs, which explains why we have proof trail dies going back to 1954, but no business strike trails until 1980.

**mustbebob** · 07-05-2017

This is turning into a very intriguing discussion. The proof trail dies are pretty scarce and show up on other denominations as well. I would think that the polishing of proof dies would be different than business strike coins, but maybe it is just an additional step where this showed up. I never saw (or paid attention to) the polishing of the dies when I went on my two mint tours. I did see them take out and abrade a clashed die though. I wonder if it was at the same station where the trails may have been made.

**willbrooks** · 07-05-2017

Thanks for chiming in, Bob. I was specifically talking about business strikes in that last post, because that is what the caption in the picture references. Of course, proof dies are also polished and thus susceptible to the same effect. I would assume (I have no evidence, but think it would make sense) that proof dies would be polished multiple times, with increasingly finer tools, in order to achieve the mirror-like finish. This finish is surely not done in one step. I think this is all consistent with my findings. What Jody is saying also makes sense and is consistent. I have noted that earlier proof trails seem to be mushier in appearance than later proof trails. The trails may have been made in one of the polishings and then "blurred" by a later polishing. Just speculating on that, but it seems to fit. Like I said in the article, there is more to be expounded on. But I am glad to have your experience participating in the discussion. May I ask what your general stance is on this after reading the article?

**mustbebob** · 07-06-2017

May I ask what your general stance is on this after reading the article?

After reading your article Will, I am tending to agree completely. I would be lying if I said this particular scenario had not been discussed before (I had the discussion with Chuck on a few occasions). He was adamant that the trails were caused by abrading/polishing. I also had many discussions with BJ on his theory. With that being said, there are some individual dies that seem to defy the logic. I will try to remember which ones they were and approach you on those.
Errors are not my strong suit, but as a collector, I am always willing to learn. I have changed my opinion on many things over the years, and this is one of them. I do congratulate you on the work. It is very well done and persuasive (As Mike D. said).

**trails** · 07-06-2017

It has been awhile since I have been on any forum, but I do think that some questions posted in this thread have been answered.

1. I have talked to Chris Pilliod (Fly-in-club president), who in turned has talked to some of the higher ups at the the U. S. Mint. The mint employees indicated that they do not know the cause, nor how to stop it. Remember, this type of die variation has been around for well over 150 years! And not only on U. S. coins. I might add that I have also talked to the U. S. Mint about this anomaly and they seem little concerned to what the cause was or how to correct it.

2. Die deterioration cannot be the cause; too many early die state coins have been found with trail dies. However, trail lines can be the cause of early die deterioration. This has been seen in some examples where die deterioration is seen as parallel lines from the words IN GOD WE TRUST on Lincoln cents.

3. Die polishing - if trail lines were only seen on working dies, there may be a slim chance that this is the cause. However, we have seen them on working hubs and master dies as well. We also have seen them on proof working dies, which are treated a bit different than business working dies. I would also think that if die polishing were the cause, that some changes in the structure of the trail lines would be seen over the 150 year old span. We would also have to explain what element in the polishing machine is able to cut precise lines into a steel die and only from points within the elements on the die (hub) itself. And, can we explain that all die polishing techniques are the same in the countries that have produced trail dies?

4. My only hang-up at this point in time is with 3 or more sets of directional trail lines. I cannot explain how that can happen and I do still ponder if it is created by hubbing or some other cause.

While trail dies are still on my mind, I do have much more important matters of concern to deal with at the present. Hopefully, I'll be back in full swing one day.

Robert (BJ) Neff

**trails** · 07-06-2017

Just one other point to think about. Awhile back I did an enlargement of a trail line from the base of the T in CENT. Take a look at it and notice that the height of the trail line is the same as the element from which it originated. How does this happen? The trail line is also not a straight line.

BJ Neff

**jfines69** · 07-06-2017

Glad to see you chime in BJ... Hope every thing goes good for you... I need to absorb this some more... Very interesting addition of information to the mix!!!