Overlay experts - seeking your help - I keep getting an error

**Justafarmer** · 10-31-2017

Originally Posted by jfines69

That can be explained by different master dies for the 19... Not all will be exactly the same (I have no idea how many masters were created tho)... The last two digits could represent a different individual punching the numbers on... Hope that helps a little!!!

But with the "19" of the date originating from the galvano these design elements are transferred to the Foundation Hub during the reduction process. This hub is the origin design for all master dies.

**jfines69** · 10-31-2017

Originally Posted by Justafarmer

But with the "19" of the date originating from the galvano these design elements are transferred to the Foundation Hub during the reduction process. This hub is the origin design for all master dies.

How many different foundation hubs are made with how many different galvanos... I have seen a show (Science Channel I believe) on how the mint makes coins... There were several reduction lathes creating dies at the same time??? Wexler shows some of them here http://doubleddie.com/58201.html

**Petespockets55** · 10-31-2017

Originally Posted by jfines69

....... There were several reduction lathes creating dies at the same time??? Wexler shows some of them here http://doubleddie.com/58201.html

Quote from Wexler's link above-

"The French Portrait Lathe was a reduction tool that traced out the design on the galvano and engraved that design onto the face of a Master Hub. This process was a slow and tedious one taking anywhere from a day and a half to two days to complete the transfer of the design to the master hub. When finished, the master hub had the design in relief and the face of the master hub was the exact size of the coins that would ultimately be produced with that design.

The master hub could be used over a period of several years since it did not contain the date. Each year it would be used to make a master die for that year. That master die would then in turn be used to make working hubs and the working hubs would be used to make the working dies as in the process described earlier. The remaining design elements would be punched or engraved into the individual working dies."

**jfines69** · 11-01-2017

Originally Posted by Petespockets55

Quote from Wexler's link above-

"The French Portrait Lathe was a reduction tool that traced out the design on the galvano and engraved that design onto the face of a Master Hub. This process was a slow and tedious one taking anywhere from a day and a half to two days to complete the transfer of the design to the master hub. When finished, the master hub had the design in relief and the face of the master hub was the exact size of the coins that would ultimately be produced with that design.

The master hub could be used over a period of several years since it did not contain the date. Each year it would be used to make a master die for that year. That master die would then in turn be used to make working hubs and the working hubs would be used to make the working dies as in the process described earlier. The remaining design elements would be punched or engraved into the individual working dies."

If those in the pics were all the same designs then there were several master hubs created??? Since the dates were put on the dies at a later time that would explain the difference in location of the numbers!!!

**Petespockets55** · 11-01-2017

Originally Posted by jfines69

If those in the pics were all the same designs then there were several master hubs created??? Since the dates were put on the dies at a later time that would explain the difference in location of the numbers!!!

Those images in the article were from 1998(?).
Was the date applied with a "punch" for each numeral (like applying a mint mark then) or was it carved into the master after it was created using the galvano?

I agree but it would be hard to know if the process changed any from, say 1909, where the mint has almost 90 years until the first two digits would have to changed.
The following is newbie speculation_ ....... The first two digits may have been part of the design on the galvano(?) back in 1909. This scenario would make sense from an efficiency standpoint. This would account for the 19 being consistently placed year to year.
Also there may have been a "jig" when applying the date to the master (or was it carved into the master?). That would keep the first two consistantly spaced/placed. The placement of the 3rd and 4rth digits could theoretically move slightly, even in a "jig', if the 1 was inverted and the numeral was not perfectly centered in the metal "punch".

**jfines69** · 11-01-2017

Originally Posted by Petespockets55

Those images in the article were from 1998(?).
Was the date applied with a "punch" for each numeral (like applying a mint mark then) or was it carved into the master after it was created using the galvano?

I agree but it would be hard to know if the process changed any from, say 1909, where the mint has almost 90 years until the first two digits would have to changed.
The following is newbie speculation_ ....... The first two digits may have been part of the design on the galvano(?) back in 1909. This scenario would make sense from an efficiency standpoint. This would account for the 19 being consistently placed year to year.
Also there may have been a "jig" when applying the date to the master (or was it carved into the master?). That would keep the first two consistantly spaced/placed. The placement of the 3rd and 4rth digits could theoretically move slightly, even in a "jig', if the 1 was inverted and the numeral was not perfectly centered in the metal "punch".

I do not remember when they stopped hand punching the dates on... Now I need to do some research... Hopefully I can find the info!!!

**Justafarmer** · 11-02-2017

I think 1922, 1923, 1924 and 1925 have a common 3 digit sub-master in their lineage as the attached overlay images indicate. Think I plotted the 1923 date to far west - just a mite.

**Petespockets55** · 11-02-2017

Originally Posted by Justafarmer

I think 1922, 1923, 1924 and 1925 have a common 3 digit sub-master in their lineage as the attached overlay images indicate. Think I plotted the 1923 date to far west - just a mite.

Neat how this lets you compare devices on different coins.