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  1. #1
    Forum Ambassador VAB2013's Avatar
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    Let's talk about lighting

    Since recently purchasing the Celestron 5 MP Handheld Digital Microscope Pro, I discovered that the microscope works very well and does what it is supposed to do. But, proper lighting to achieve a true color photo of a Lincoln cent has become a challenge.

    I found this Dec. 2017 article written in CoinWeek and found it interesting that in the grading rooms of the major TPG's, they are literally sitting in the dark with an incandescent light source.

    Here's the article https://coinweek.com/education/coin-...lights-loupes/

    Understanding how consistency and accuracy is important for TPG's and their customers, I have tried to apply this same principle to coin photography. My reason for starting this thread is to see how we can work together in an effort to achieve a simple, practical, inexpensive solution that would work for everybody, under any conditions, night or day.

    Then I found this article:

    http://blog.coinsupplyplanet.com/top...ve-coin-tools/

    Under #5 this article references the "Tensor Light and the Ottlite" Is anyone familiar with either of these two? I researched and found several different ones of each type.
    Last edited by VAB2013; 01-03-2018 at 03:04 PM. Reason: typo

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    Paid Member makecents's Avatar
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    Good articles Viv. The "natural daylight lamp" they refer to is not what I was talking about. I'm not familiar with this and am very curious. The only thing I had seen are just the natural daylight bulbs which did not help at all.

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    Forum Ambassador VAB2013's Avatar
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    Thank you Jon! It would be nice if someone could tell us... I use "this" and do "this" and it works perfectly every time. Maybe there is no such thing?

    I don't mind working in a dark room, never been real fond of real bright light, so if turning off the lights and using one particular light source would "consistently" work, that would be great.

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    If I can give you one piece of advice to get you started with the USB scopes, it would be to keep things simple by picking a one light source (not one lamp but one TYPE of lamp) and stick with it for a while.
    What you will find with any type of lighting is that every coin is different. It's the most frustrating part of coin photography to me by far! You finish snapping the best pic you ever took and then start to believe you have this thing sorted out lighting wise. Well, then you jump to the next coin and it looks so bad that you think something is wrong with your lights or your computer is messing up or something, etc. However, that's rarely the case. It's just the coin! There are multiple complications that can give you a migraine with lighting when you're just starting out: toning, damage, dirt, red/brown transition, ....you name it! The key is consistency. Pick one type of lighting and stay with it until you're sure it's the lights and not you.

    Ray really has this stuff down cold. His recommendation of two Jansjo gooseneck lamps placed at 10 o'clock and 2 o'clock is right on the money. Diffuse them with your weapon of choice- toilet tissue, Kleenex, an old white T-shirt, whatever works. Then make a redneck "smile director" by covering the inner half of the lights - north to south, i.e.- half moon shaped- with black electrical tape. These steps alone should help you greatly. Down the road you can add a reflector of some sort at 6 o'clock if necessary.

    I recommend Ray's setup because there is no wasted and/or unnecessary light to compete with. It's the simplest to use because you're only lighting the coin and not the outside background for the most part. If you have too much external light surrounding the coin, it's going to "confuse" your scope and computer. You don't have to be in a blacked out room. As long as the external lights - ceiling, etc.- are not directly overhead, you should be fine. I don't, however, recommend shooting next to a window trying to achieve natural light. It work great sometimes but if even one cloud rolls thru, you're lighting has just changed altogether without you realizing it and profanity is soon to follow!

    My main point to all this is that it's usually the coin itself giving you grief and not your lights. Almost any light can be decent if placed and diffused properly. However, if you are constantly changing light sources, you're going to really frustrate yourself as a beginner. If you can't make the above setup or similar work out for you, then there's likely an issue with your scope or computer settings. The real art to coin lighting is learning how to adjust the angle of your lights to suit each individual coin. Remember this because it is a certainty: some will NEVER turn out like you want them to! You can change the lights a million times but the coin itself will never change.

    I hope this helps you guys. Good luck!

    Tracy

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    Thank you Tracy this is great information! My concern with the Jansjo lights is they are all LED's I think. Because of my bad experience with LED's and how they destroy how a coin looks, I am wanting to find something that does not have LED lights. Another factor that I am dealing with that is different from Ray's set up is, he is using a camera with software so he can tweak white light settings. I do not have an option to do that. Anyhow, that is where my thought process is going. Hopefully this weekend I will have more time to look around at different lights.

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    Viv...you're right about the difficulty of achieving true color with the Celestron. The on-board lights have a strong blue color balance, and the software compensates this to give something "reasonable". But unfortunately, if you change to a light that is better balanced, and since the software cannot be changed, the color is shifted greatly in the other direction. I found it easier/possible to take the "reasonable" result with the on-board lights and tweak the final image to get close to correct color. Using better lights, and then attempting to modify the resulting image to achieve correct color, failed miserably. The reason is that the R channel is completely saturated due to the compensation done for the on-board lights. Once saturation occurs, it's impossible to get back that information.

    So there are only 2 choices as I see it:
    1) accept the on-board lights, and develop a method to correct the color in post-processing
    2) work with Celestron to update their software to offer manual white balancing so that better lights can be used

    Knowing how difficult it is to get anyone to change their software, I think it's down to #1 above as the only choice. I outlined how to do this in the original thread on the Celestron, but I can go through again if that didn't make sense...Ray
    Builder of Custom Coin Photography Setups. PM me with your needs or visit http://macrocoins.com

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    Forum Ambassador VAB2013's Avatar
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    Thank you very much Ray for this helpful information! Here is what I would like to accomplish:

    1. Talk to Celestron and see if they can modify their software. Celestron has AMCAP software on their website but it is a different version than the AMCAP I was previously using with my old scope. My old scope was very inferior but the version of AMCAP I used compensated for that in such a way that I was able to adjust Brightness, Contrast, Saturation, Hue, Red and Blue Color Settings, Gamma, etc. and achieve decent color despite the LED lights which I had to cover with a paper filter.

    2. See if I can download the same software you use with your Canon camera to adjust color post-processing.

    3. Look for some lights, I need 2. But I'm afraid if the lights are LED I will just be exchanging one issue for another. I'd like to have a different light bulb.

    When I took photos with natural light, the color was not bad at all but they needed a little more light. Problem with that is, most of the roll searching I do is at night

    Please give me your thoughts on these ideas! Thank you!!!

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    Forum Ambassador VAB2013's Avatar
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    Just a thought... maybe it would help if I explain how I roll search and why I really want to simplify this as much as possible.

    1. I keep the scope lowered down as far as it will go and still focus because I want to see up close.

    2. A tip I got from JC Stevens is... I use an index card, fold it in half and then fold one edge of it up (for something to hold onto) so I can place the coin on the index card and move it around under the scope.

    3. I like to look at a LOT of coins, pretty fast unless it's AU/BU and/or a variety date. If it's not a good date (2005, 2008, some D Mints, etc.) or in really bad shape, I don't spend a lot of time looking at it. I could have missed a cud this way, kind of makes me sick to think about that!

    4. When I find something that I need to take photos of I want to be able to snap them quick and keep on searching. Kind of the same way I like to play golf... hit the ball, hollar fore, jump in the golf cart and go find my ball

    5. I may be expecting the impossible, but it would be nice to achieve something close to this. Ideally, to have lights set up all of the time that will do a decent job consistently, I don't expect great out of myself. Also, I want to be able to see a nice colored Lincoln, I love the color purple but just for clothes and jewelry

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    Forum Ambassador VAB2013's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by duece2seven View Post
    If I can give you one piece of advice to get you started with the USB scopes, it would be to keep things simple by picking a one light source (not one lamp but one TYPE of lamp) and stick with it for a while.
    What you will find with any type of lighting is that every coin is different. It's the most frustrating part of coin photography to me by far! You finish snapping the best pic you ever took and then start to believe you have this thing sorted out lighting wise. Well, then you jump to the next coin and it looks so bad that you think something is wrong with your lights or your computer is messing up or something, etc. However, that's rarely the case. It's just the coin! There are multiple complications that can give you a migraine with lighting when you're just starting out: toning, damage, dirt, red/brown transition, ....you name it! The key is consistency. Pick one type of lighting and stay with it until you're sure it's the lights and not you.

    Ray really has this stuff down cold. His recommendation of two Jansjo gooseneck lamps placed at 10 o'clock and 2 o'clock is right on the money. Diffuse them with your weapon of choice- toilet tissue, Kleenex, an old white T-shirt, whatever works. Then make a redneck "smile director" by covering the inner half of the lights - north to south, i.e.- half moon shaped- with black electrical tape. These steps alone should help you greatly. Down the road you can add a reflector of some sort at 6 o'clock if necessary.

    I recommend Ray's setup because there is no wasted and/or unnecessary light to compete with. It's the simplest to use because you're only lighting the coin and not the outside background for the most part. If you have too much external light surrounding the coin, it's going to "confuse" your scope and computer. You don't have to be in a blacked out room. As long as the external lights - ceiling, etc.- are not directly overhead, you should be fine. I don't, however, recommend shooting next to a window trying to achieve natural light. It work great sometimes but if even one cloud rolls thru, you're lighting has just changed altogether without you realizing it and profanity is soon to follow!

    My main point to all this is that it's usually the coin itself giving you grief and not your lights. Almost any light can be decent if placed and diffused properly. However, if you are constantly changing light sources, you're going to really frustrate yourself as a beginner. If you can't make the above setup or similar work out for you, then there's likely an issue with your scope or computer settings. The real art to coin lighting is learning how to adjust the angle of your lights to suit each individual coin. Remember this because it is a certainty: some will NEVER turn out like you want them to! You can change the lights a million times but the coin itself will never change.

    I hope this helps you guys. Good luck!

    Tracy
    You guys really know your stuff! Thank you Tracy and Ray! I am still trying to achieve consistency, but thanks to your info in this post... here is before and after, first attempt!
    Attached Images Attached Images

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    You're welcome, Viv. Very nice 1st attempt.
    Big difference in the luster for sure. I have some additional ideas for you to try but I think I should let you play with the new lights for a few days first. Try them at varying angles and post more pics here if you can. I would be particularly be curious to see how the coin in your 2nd pic would look if you switched to 3 o'clock and 9 o'clock. I'm not sure I can explain how but it will tell me a bit more about how your scope works. Positioning your lights from multiple angles and clock positions will eventually teach you how your Jansjo's can be manipulated to adjust for the inconsistencies you will encounter particularly when shooting coins from circulation/bankrolls.

    One piece of advice I would recommend for now would be to try shooting on a velvet or soft "fabric" type of surface to absorb some of the excess light that's bouncing back into your scope. These scopes average out everything they see so the less information they have to factor in the better.

    Give me some different shots of that 2nd coin and I will weigh in as soon as I can. Also, I would like to see a shot taken at 10 and 2 but using a white background. Plain paper is fine for this shot.
    Gotta run. Have fun with the new lights!

    Tracy

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