Awesome discovery & research from moving my Lincoln set

[jay4202472000]

This thread will turn out to be pretty long, but it could spark an interesting discussion I think. I got a Dansco 7100 a few years ago, but I had previously put my main Lincoln set, from 1909-1974, in an “Official US Mint” book. It is similar to the Dansco, with the slide out plastic covers, but stopped at 1974. I had my newer cents in the cheap, tri-fold, booklets you can get at Hobby Lobby, so I moved them over to the Dansco a couple years ago. I decided to move my 1909-1974 coins over, and planned to glass them as I went. I started working on a set of cents way before I got into die varieties.


I found some interesting stuff: a 1941S-RPM-012 (1MM-012)(WRPM-013) in XF, a 1952S-RPM-009 (1MM-009)(WRPM-020) in VF-XF, a 1960D-1MM-213 (small date) in BU, and a 1957-D with an unlisted, small reverse CUD or retained CUD.


The most interesting was only 2 coins into the move. My AU 1909-P (no VDB) is a transitional DDR. I started trying to match it to the VV listings, then went to Wexler, then to CC. None matched, so for the heck of it I checked the Matte Proof DDR. https://www.coppercoins.com/lincoln/...&die_state=eds No obverse markers matched, but most of the reverse markers matched. The E/W scratch under the middle bar of the E in CENT, along with the arching scratch, under the wheat tips, near the rim is nonexistent on my coin, but the X shaped scratches below the M in UNUM, and the 2 parallel scratches b/t the upper IB of PLURIBUS are easily seen. Also note the SE/NW gouge inside the C of CENT, and the WSW running scratch from the S, passing just under the U in PLURIBUS. My mind started running a million miles per hour, but I did think to reach out to Jay (onecent1909). I wanted to know if anyone had ran into a possible business strike obverse paired with the Matte Proof reverse.


I’m not privy to all the information that group have discovered, but he did tell me that a lot of those markers were found on many of those transitional DDRs that were discovered.


I checked the 4 no VDB listings on VV and the parallel scratches b/t IB and the WSW scratch under the U, in PLURIBUS, are visible on all 4 listings. http://www.varietyvista.com/01a%20LC...DDR%201909.htm


I also started looking through the PCGS images of the graded Matte Proofs. I was able to spot 2 1DR-008P coins pretty easily. They match obverse die markers too. Check them out: https://www.pcgs.com/cert/26910596, https://www.pcgs.com/cert/41002691.


All this leads me to one question, and one, somewhat uninformed hypothesis. Does anyone know how many master dies were made for 1909 no VDB? We know for a fact there were at least 2. One with shallow cut N & one with deep cut N. But is it possible, like with 1972, more than one master die was created with the deep cut N (no VDB)? And during the creation of one, it was hubbed with both reverse designs (shallow & deep N)? If so, is it possible that all, or at least some, of these new DDRs are the result of master die doubling? We know for a fact right now that there are 4 different business strike listings, along with my coin and a matte proof, that share reverse die markers.


I will add some images to this post, but I am going to make a couple more posts to add images and thoughts/comments. Thanks all and please discuss! This is super interesting to me. I’m glad I moved those coins!!

[jay4202472000]

X scratch under the M. PLURIBUS scratches. SE/NW gouge in the C. All of these show well in the matte proof marker photos. https://www.coppercoins.com/lincoln/...&die_state=eds

VV doesn’t have an image of the C in CENT in any of the listings.

[jay4202472000]

Obverse marker photos. Note the 2 gouges/chips on the left side of 0 in date. Note the spiked head crack on the LEFT side of the E. There may be 1 or even 2 light cracks from the rim to the bust at around K7. The wood grain is killing me. I can’t tell for sure.

[jay4202472000]

Other reverse die markers: 2 small chips on a crack from rim to upper left wheat ear, scratch from right top of left wheat ear & other scratches running NNE, gouge on lower left of N in CENT.

[WaterSport]

You raise some darn good questions and I am sure those that have been researching this know some of the answers. Carl Waltz Jr. Book on Matte Proof Lincolns was the first to photo and acknowledge what he called Re Cut dies. The obvious question has been did any MPL dies strike Business strike coins. It now appears for the the year 1909 - Many - or at least the reverses. I need to get my MPLs out and see if I have any have these reverse markers.

Bob

[WaterSport]

A quick look at the 1909 VDB, 1909 and 1910 Matte Proofs have none of these dies in question.

Bob

[jfines69]

Very interesting discussion unfolding... Also comparing yours with CCs 008 - CC states that an estimated 180 were minted... If that were so I think yours would have the exact same rev markers... The obv dies could be different as those could be changed but that would be odd with such a low number of mintage???

[jay4202472000]

Very interesting discussion unfolding... Also comparing yours with CCs 008 - CC states that an estimated 180 were minted... If that were so I think yours would have the exact same rev markers... The obv dies could be different as those could be changed but that would be odd with such a low number of mintage???

I don’t think my coin is the matte proof (008P). It just has most of those markers shown in the 008P images. I’m mainly pondering if a majority of the “shallow N” over “deep cut N” DDRs are the result of master die doubling. It’s odd to me that at least 6 known obverse pairings (my coin included) have those markers. And, I would assume some markers would fade away while creating more and more working hubs. I mentioned the 1972 coins, but it also reminded me of the hub scratches I noticed while finding die markers for the 1955-S WRPMs. Thread is here: https://www.lincolncentforum.com/for...-a-die-feature

There are a handful of the EDS WRPMs from 1955 that exhibit those incuse hub scratches. It feels really similar to me with these 1909 transitional DDRs. Same looking doubling, same markers, but different obverse dies.

[Petespockets55]

I believe the answer to how many master dies were made is in the current issue of the Erroscope Magazine (May-June 2023).
(I'm having to skim through your thread because of time constraints so I'm not sure if you are aware of the article.)

[jfines69]

I don’t think my coin is the matte proof (008P). It just has most of those markers shown in the 008P images. I’m mainly pondering if a majority of the “shallow N” over “deep cut N” DDRs are the result of master die doubling. It’s odd to me that at least 6 known obverse pairings (my coin included) have those markers. And, I would assume some markers would fade away while creating more and more working hubs. I mentioned the 1972 coins, but it also reminded me of the hub scratches I noticed while finding die markers for the 1955-S WRPMs. Thread is here: https://www.lincolncentforum.com/for...-a-die-feature

There are a handful of the EDS WRPMs from 1955 that exhibit those incuse hub scratches. It feels really similar to me with these 1909 transitional DDRs. Same looking doubling, same markers, but different obverse dies.

With the matching markers I would think it would be the matte proof??? Unless the die scratches are from a master die???