Awesome discovery & research from moving my Lincoln set

[jay4202472000]

With the matching markers I would think it would be the matte proof??? Unless the die scratches are from a master die???

That is what I’m getting at. 1DR-008P & VDDR-020 should be the same die, per the gouge from the upper left of T in LIBERTY. That matte proof DDR, along with VDDR-017, 018, & 019, and my coin in the attached images, all have matching REVERSE markers. Specifically the 2 parallel die scratches b/t the top of IB in PLURIBUS, and the crossing die scratches from each leg of the M in UNUM. Check out my images and the links to Coppercoins & Variety Vista. You can see them fairly easily. VV doesn’t have an image of the C in CENT on any of the 4 non VDB listings, but I would bet you anything all those coins have a NW/SE die gouge in the middle of the C. The CC images of the matte proof does.

[ray_parkhurst]

I don’t think my coin is the matte proof (008P). It just has most of those markers shown in the 008P images. I’m mainly pondering if a majority of the “shallow N” over “deep cut N” DDRs are the result of master die doubling. It’s odd to me that at least 6 known obverse pairings (my coin included) have those markers. And, I would assume some markers would fade away while creating more and more working hubs. I mentioned the 1972 coins, but it also reminded me of the hub scratches I noticed while finding die markers for the 1955-S WRPMs. Thread is here: https://www.lincolncentforum.com/for...-a-die-feature

There are a handful of the EDS WRPMs from 1955 that exhibit those incuse hub scratches. It feels really similar to me with these 1909 transitional DDRs. Same looking doubling, same markers, but different obverse dies.

I saw similar incuse hub scratches in my last "roll fest" of 55-S Cents. I published some images and commentary but for some reason can't find them now. If I had seen your comments earlier I would have piggybacked, but I thought I was the first to see them. Anyway, I will keep looking and post back when I find the thread.

Edited to add: I did just find the High Resolution image I took of a 55-S Cent with hub scratches that was the basis of my response, see it here:

https://easyzoom.com/image/294790/album/0/4?mode=manage

[Petespockets55]

I saw similar incuse hub scratches in my last "roll fest" of 55-S Cents. I published some images and commentary but for some reason can't find them now. If I had seen your comments earlier I would have piggybacked, but I thought I was the first to see them. Anyway, I will keep looking and post back when I find the thread.

Edited to add: I did just find the High Resolution image I took of a 55-S Cent with hub scratches that was the basis of my response, see it here:

https://easyzoom.com/image/294790/album/0/4?mode=manage

Ray, where are the raised hub scratches located on this image? (They aren't jumping out at me.)
Around the date?

[jay4202472000]

Ray, where are the raised hub scratches located on this image? (They aren't jumping out at me.)
Around the date?

Cliff, they aren’t raised. They are incuse on the coin. Look running WSW from the back of the head. There is also a fairly strong one that starts b/t the TY of LLIBERTY, and runs SW almost parallel with his back.

Ray, those images still amaze me every time I see one!

[ray_parkhurst]

On 55-S I look for the "V" formed by four hub scratches, two each from around the E and the T of LIBERTY, that meet in the field to left of shoulder. This is a distinctive pattern that shows up on a bunch of dies, but by MDS they are usually gone. This particular coin is EDS, and they are already showing a little wear.

[jfines69]

That is what I’m getting at. 1DR-008P & VDDR-020 should be the same die, per the gouge from the upper left of T in LIBERTY. That matte proof DDR, along with VDDR-017, 018, & 019, and my coin in the attached images, all have matching REVERSE markers. Specifically the 2 parallel die scratches b/t the top of IB in PLURIBUS, and the crossing die scratches from each leg of the M in UNUM. Check out my images and the links to Coppercoins & Variety Vista. You can see them fairly easily. VV doesn’t have an image of the C in CENT on any of the 4 non VDB listings, but I would bet you anything all those coins have a NW/SE die gouge in the middle of the C. The CC images of the matte proof does.

Got an idea but need to do some study of the pics on VV and CC of the DDRs you pointed out to tell for sure and then I will get back hopefully today!!!

[Petespockets55]

Cliff, they aren’t raised. They are incuse on the coin...

Jay, thanks for pointing that out. (Another mental glitch on my part.)

On the working hub, not the working die.

On 55-S I look for the "V" formed by four hub scratches, two each from around the E and the T of LIBERTY, that meet in the field to left of shoulder. This is a distinctive pattern that shows up on a bunch of dies, but by MDS they are usually gone. This particular coin is EDS, and they are already showing a little wear.

Thanks Ray. With your description, they stand out.

[jfines69]

I compared CCs 008P VV DDR-017 018 019 and 020... They do have a lot of the same markers as yours especially between and at the top of IB in EPU and of the legs of M in UNUM though with varying degrees of wear... The differences I see is in the DDR itself... Easiest to tell on STA of STATES... On 008 there is a long stub off the top of S and a notch on the top of the A... 017 has a notch on the top of the S and smaller notch on the A... 018 Stub on the S is smaller than 008 and smaller notch on A... 019 has a small stub on S and doesn't appear to have a notch on the A or is really small... 020 appears to have an angle stub on the S and a small notch on the A... That may be the only reason the DDRs are listed separately even though they are from the same die??? Can you post pics of USA for us... That may help a little more!!!

[jay4202472000]

I will work on that as soon as I get a chance Jim. I’m still leaning toward master die markers. It just feels hard to believe they could all be the exact same reverse working die. In that instance, the reverse would have had to start out as a matte proof, then be paired with at least 5 other different business strike obverses.

I get you those images as soon as I get a chance.

[jfines69]

I will work on that as soon as I get a chance Jim. I’m still leaning toward master die markers. It just feels hard to believe they could all be the exact same reverse working die. In that instance, the reverse would have had to start out as a matte proof, then be paired with at least 5 other different business strike obverses.

I get you those images as soon as I get a chance.

Sounds good... Remember that CC shows that only about 180 matte proofs were minted... If that is the case then it is highly possible that business strikes were minted with the same rev die and matched with different obv business dies!!!