Awesome discovery & research from moving my Lincoln set

[jay4202472000]

Jim, these images may be no help at all. The wood grain look or something makes this coin a terror to photograph for some reason. The S on my coin took a small hit, so the end is deformed a tad. The A does have a notch in the center, but I had to tilt the coin a fair amount to get it to show well. Also, there is a nice die dot to the left of the A, just below where the crossbar would intersect. I only noticed it while taking these images. I want to look over the listings to see if I see it anywhere.

I also added an image of the doubling at the bottom of IT in UNITED. I couldn’t get it to show originally, and it was the first thing I noticed when I glassed the coin. Hope they help you some.

[jfines69]

To me Your STA and IT look closest to VVs 020... Even with the hit on the S the knub appears to angle back like VVs sample... The notch on your A is real close in location also... I decided to take a look at VVs 09S DDRsYour ... 001 has the exact same markers between the IB as VVs 017 018 019 020 and CCs 008... The doubling on VVs 002 is really different and I did not see any markers that match with the others... Really strange - at least 4 P mints with the same rev dies and 1 S mint!!!

[jay4202472000]

I hadn’t checked the 1909-S listings. That’s pretty crazy. I did check my 1909-S (no VDB) when I was moving my coins. It wasn’t a DDR. This is driving me nuts, but it is very interesting. I have a bag of lightly circulated 1972s that had the master die doubling. If I can find some time I am going to dig them out and see if I can find some matching markers on some coins that I know are from different obverse dies. Just to see if it is possible for markers to make it from master die, through working hub, then on to working dies. I would at least know if it is plausible. The more the markers show up the harder it is for me to believe they are all the exact same reverse die.

It just seems easier for me to believe that a master die transferred some markers to 1 or 2 working hubs (before the markers faded), then on to a few working dies apiece, than it is for me to believe a matte proof die struck some proofs. Then got paired with an obverse and struck a bunch of coins. Then got paired with another obverse and struck a bunch of coins. Then another. Then another. Then was shipped to San Fran and paired with the S/horizontal S and struck some more. But we do know from onecent1909 that not all S/horizontal S coins have the DDR.

Then I go back and think, “If it is master die related, why aren’t there way more floating around?” Not as many as 1972, since 2 different styles of hub was used, but still plenty of them. Then I am back to square one going over all of it in my head again. I guess I am going to have to break down and join CONECA just to read the Errorscope article at some point.

[jay4202472000]

Jim, I figured out another piece. Those markers are on the VDB “deep cut N” only reverse too. Unless I just can’t see the doubling or the shallow N on this listing. The gouge/scratch in the C & the two scratches from the M are visible on this coin, along with the scratches b/t IB: https://www.ebay.com/itm/314618351139

[jfines69]

Jim, I figured out another piece. Those markers are on the VDB “deep cut N” only reverse too. Unless I just can’t see the doubling or the shallow N on this listing. The gouge/scratch in the C & the two scratches from the M are visible on this coin, along with the scratches b/t IB: https://www.ebay.com/itm/314618351139

I believe that is the shallow cut RDV-003... The RDV-004 was hub first and the RDV-003 was hub into the RDV-004... Shallow cut into deep cut... That's why we have the die markers still in place... I think since the abrasions are actually shallow if they were on the masters they would have been covered up during the hubbings... If I remember correctly the masters make the dies to hub the working dies... The the working dies are hubbed??? In this case RDV-004 is hubbed 1st heat treated then RDV-003 was hubbed 2nd leaving the die abrassions... Any previous abrasions unless they were deep would have most likely been covered over by metal flow... RDV-003 may have all the abrasions because it could have been a VDB die at first and had it removed also causing it to become a shallow N???

[jfines69]

I hadn’t checked the 1909-S listings. That’s pretty crazy. I did check my 1909-S (no VDB) when I was moving my coins. It wasn’t a DDR. This is driving me nuts, but it is very interesting. I have a bag of lightly circulated 1972s that had the master die doubling. If I can find some time I am going to dig them out and see if I can find some matching markers on some coins that I know are from different obverse dies. Just to see if it is possible for markers to make it from master die, through working hub, then on to working dies. I would at least know if it is plausible. The more the markers show up the harder it is for me to believe they are all the exact same reverse die.

It just seems easier for me to believe that a master die transferred some markers to 1 or 2 working hubs (before the markers faded), then on to a few working dies apiece, than it is for me to believe a matte proof die struck some proofs. Then got paired with an obverse and struck a bunch of coins. Then got paired with another obverse and struck a bunch of coins. Then another. Then another. Then was shipped to San Fran and paired with the S/horizontal S and struck some more. But we do know from onecent1909 that not all S/horizontal S coins have the DDR.

Then I go back and think, “If it is master die related, why aren’t there way more floating around?” Not as many as 1972, since 2 different styles of hub was used, but still plenty of them. Then I am back to square one going over all of it in my head again. I guess I am going to have to break down and join CONECA just to read the Errorscope article at some point.

It will be interesting to see what comes up with your 72s... If only 180 matte proofs were struck dies could have been transferred to san fran to prevent waste!!!

[WaterSport]

And the matte proof die is a more special die with more detail so it may have been used afterwords because it was in very good shape and perhaps annealed (harden) more because of the extra pressure required to make proofs?? Thus it simply was able to last longer making a bunch more cents than normal??

Bob

[jay4202472000]

Jim, VV has those attributed as deep over shallow. All are attributed that way, even the V.D.B dies. That would be shallow hubbed first, followed by deep cut hubbed over. That coin on eBay I linked is without a doubt RDV-002 (deep cut N with VDB).


Copied and pasted Per VV on VDDR-017: Comments: Reverse is RDV-004 (Deep cut N, no V. D. B.) / RDV-003 (Shallow cut N, no V. D. B).

[jfines69]

Jim, VV has those attributed as deep over shallow. All are attributed that way, even the V.D.B dies. That would be shallow hubbed first, followed by deep cut hubbed over. That coin on eBay I linked is without a doubt RDV-002 (deep cut N with VDB).


Copied and pasted Per VV on VDDR-017: Comments: Reverse is RDV-004 (Deep cut N, no V. D. B.) / RDV-003 (Shallow cut N, no V. D. B).

That's strange - If you look at RDV 003 and 004 the I of UNITED on 003 is real narrow compared to 004... When you look at DDR 017 and the others you can see the narrow I under the overlying I??? I would also think that the ramp in the east notch on the shallow cut N of 003 would be flattened by the field in the east notch of the deep cut N if 003 were hubbed first???

[jay4202472000]

On the hub, the deep cut notch inside the N would be just that, a notch or void, not a piece of raised field like on a die. The hub itself should look exactly like the finished coin… or am I thinking about this wrong? There should just be open space there, with nothing to wipe out the ramp inside the shallow cut N. Similar to why the hub scratches on the 55-S appear to be incuse on the coin. They would be scratched into the hub, raised on the die, then stuck into the coin.

It looks like to me that regardless of which impression was first, the shallow cut ramp would remain on the coins struck.

P.S Thank you all for discussing this with me. I’m loving it!