Trail Dies feedback/questions thread

[willbrooks]

Photos by Ray Parkhurst. These are quite revealing!

[trails]

I am sorry, but I cannot agree with your theory. You must prove that something that is harder than the steel die went into the design element and extend it in the form of a line that has a knife edge shape. Are you saying that a single wire did this? Or that some element on a buffing machine, which is harder than the steel die, made this groove? If so, there should be other lines that do not originate from design elements

Some other things to consider. Trails have NEVER been found on all the design elements on a die; the most is approximately 2/3 of the die face. Why is this so? How do you explain the trails found on the 1869, 4 Centavo Uruguay coin? Or the 1921-S Morgan dollar reverses? How do you explain the trails found on various coinage from other countries? Do they use the same buffing equipment as the U. S. Mint?

I have been studying this die anomaly for 15 years and can honestly say that I put die polishing out of my mind as the cause for many reasons. The most important of which is that I can not isolate the exact item that could create such a singular engraved line in a steel die.

There is one more point to look at and I'll let you figure it out. Find a die that has trail lines originating from one design element and have that trail line cross over another design element. What do you see?

BJ Neff

[jfines69]

Awesome photos... Thanks for that follow up Will... I appreciate it... I have not read the article yet... I am going to get a hard copy of the magazine and have been unable to get to the store yet... From this thread I think it is going to be an excellent article... Looks like you put a lot of work into your research!!!

[ray_parkhurst]

...Are you saying that a single wire did this? Or that some element on a buffing machine, which is harder than the steel die, made this groove?

Buffing compound is made of small particles of materials that are harder than the hardened steel die. Individual buffing wheel threads (or gathered clumps of threads) with buffing compound on them could do a similar thing as single wires of a wire wheel (ie gathering within a die recess or alongside a die protrusion), resulting in a wear pattern that shows strong abrasion near the edge of the recess and diminishes farther from the recess. A prime example of this is the first pic on this page, where the caption reads "Enters the field here".

[jallengomez]

Occam's razor.

I think anyone who has tried to buff an area of spackle that had an incuse area can understand the idea. Or as Pete put it in another example, buffing or sanding wood that has incuse elements.

At this point, it's not going to be proof of the current theory simply because no one knows what polishing method was used on a 1869 4 Centavo coin from Uruguay, nor does logic demand that explanation. It's simply enough to understand the polishing theory. The only way for the current "die motion" theory to survive is by a refutation of the counterarguments Will made in the article, and I believe those counterarguments show the impossibility of the current theory being correct.

“You can always recognize truth by its beauty and simplicity.”

— Richard P. Feynman

[closelook]

Iv'e read thru this thread and noticed that Wavy Steps were not mentioned. Trails and Wavy Steps appear to be caused by the same thing and i can't see how a buffing wheel or wire wheel could bend and distort the steps and not abrade thru them. There are also trail dies were the devices are doubled in size and do not show the distortion that you would expect to see from a wire wheel. Iv'e been collecting Trails for over 10 years and do not believe they are caused by polishing there are to many dies were a wire wheel or polishing could not make that many changes to the design.

[willbrooks]

Iv'e read thru this thread and noticed that Wavy Steps were not mentioned. Trails and Wavy Steps appear to be caused by the same thing and i can't see how a buffing wheel or wire wheel could bend and distort the steps and not abrade thru them. There are also trail dies were the devices are doubled in size and do not show the distortion that you would expect to see from a wire wheel. Iv'e been collecting Trails for over 10 years and do not believe they are caused by polishing there are to many dies were a wire wheel or polishing could not make that many changes to the design.

I do address wavy steps in the article. I highly recommend reading the article first before passing any further judgement.
I also do not understand where you are coming from in your last sentence. ALL of the dies are polished, so I am not following your point about the number of trail dies being too numerous. Makes no sense to me.

[trails]

Wavy steps and trails are one and the same thing, they are just affecting different design elements.

To clarify one thing; I did postulate that the hubbing process may be the culprit for trail dies. However, at this point in time I even question this theory as I question die polishing as the cause for trail lines.

While the author of this thread has studied the results of his theory, I do question if he has studied the cause of the results, the actual die polisher used by the U. S. mint or any other mint that has produced trail dies. This is the crux of the matter; all piece must come together before making a statement. In other words, what item actually generators trails, what this item does to cause trails and why the trails are formed by its actions.

BJ Neff

[willbrooks]

BJ, have you read the article?

[Maineman750]

As a follow-up, and to help anyone that remains unconvinced, I am actually in the process of commissioning a trail die to be intentionally made. It may take a little while, but I will update that project as it goes along.

I'm betting this will put it to rest

[dogparkdays]

Great article Will - interesting to think about and I learned a lot from it. I can see why they decided to publish it. Well done!

[grnwavdav]

Will, I only had access to the short preview the website gave me of your article. But I did enjoy what I read. I am excited to see the results of your experiment!

[Roller]

I dread it but will wade into this issue armed with ignorance of the materials and methods used by the mint; limited knowledge of metallurgy; and limited experience with use of abrasives and polishing and wire wheels. So, I'm only going in ankle deep because the bottom falls out of my ken shortly thereafter. I have nagging questions about a few things that I think are relevant (maybe they're not relevant at all).
First off, I agree with BJ that there are too many unknown variables and moving parts in the process described in the article to conclusively point the finger at the polishing process. At the same time I'm certainly in no position to challenge Sean Moffat on his knowledge gained through a lengthy experience. Like Roger said, a reproduction of trails by polishing will settle the matter.
Question 1. How many passes across the face of the die need to be made by wheel before the through exhibited by trails is made? If softer polishing bristles or pads are more apt to make trails then it would follow that more than one pass across the die face would be necessary to create the trail. More passes raise a problem and I think Mike Diamond touched on it in his response. Assuming that either the polishing instrument or the die are held by human hands, many passes should create (if at all) a multi rayed trail as the human touch is not going to place the wheel and die in the same orientation, one to the other, every time. If both wheel and die were fixed as by a vice or mechanical arm, I could conceive of the single direction (ray) trail emanating from the device raised or incuse on the die face. However, by all indication the die and polishing wheel are not both mechanically fixed.

Question 2. If the trail is occasioned by the polishing bristles or pads being forced out of their normal position into the though or depression of incuse elements or to one side or the other of a raised device (depending on direction or angle of contact between wheel and die) then there is distorting pressure on the bristles/pad and logic would dictate that as soon as they exited the restriction they would immediately return or start returning to heir original positions on the wheel. This action should produce a fanning of the trail as more and more distance is gained from the source of origin (the exit point). I have not seen this effect on any trail dies I have observed or found. As a matter of fact, quite the opposite is apparent on all I have experienced, that is, the trail either cuts a straight line, wide at the base or exit point and trails into a point at it's terminus in the field or it remains constant in width and terminates when engaging an other device.
Question 3. And this is just an observation of the trails on the motto as posted in this thread. I note that the entire motto, with the exception of the M in UNUM is effected by the trail phenomenon. Yet the letters directly above it, the U prior to it and the dot to its other side exhibit trails. I doubt that this might have been caused by uneven pressure against the wheel in that specific spot. So why did this letter not get the same treatment from the polishing action?

Anyway those are some of my doubts based on assumptions of how the various parts interact and react when outside pressure is applied (i.e. pressing die against wheel).
I thoroughly enjoyed the article Will and appreciate the work you must have invested in producing it. I'm sure you studied this matter in depth. In the end I have to conclude that for my thinking there are too many variables (BJ) to make a conclusive finding.
I'm ready for the sticks and stones.LOL

[willbrooks]

The only way for the current "die motion" theory to survive is by a refutation of the counterarguments Will made in the article, and I believe those counterarguments show the impossibility of the current theory being correct.

Exactly. The hubbing theory is not a possibility and therefore must be eliminated from the discussion. One single counterexample will disprove a theory, and I gave 7 or 8 of them in the article. For those who have not read it, here is a single example: The existence of multi-diectional trails on a die made by a single squeeze hubbing ALL BY ITSELF eliminates the hubbing process as a possibility! A solid object simply cannot move in move in 2 different directions at the same time causing 2 or, in some cases, even 3 sets of trails on a coin. BJ himself recognizes this as a problem. He says multiple times that his theory cannot explain this, but yet he has held to it anyway. This is not how the scientific method works. You don't get to say, "this directly flies in the face of my theory, but it must be true anyway." It simply cannot be, therefore it isn't.

To clarify one thing; I did postulate that the hubbing process may be the culprit for trail dies. However, at this point in time I even question this theory as I question die polishing as the cause for trail lines.

BJ Neff

That's fine. Question away. Trails being caused during hubbing is not a possibility. We would have to believe in multiple physical impossibilities as I note in the article. But, I realize that in itself doesn't automatically make my "theory" true either. However, let me say a few things about that. Firstly, everything we see (and that I denoted) about trails is explained by die polishing. Secondly, nobody thus far has said anything that refutes that. Thirdly, I believe I have presented some incredibly strong additional evidence to support my claim, including an eye witness. Lastly, what else is there for a possibility? It cannot be hubbing, so if you want to refute polishing as the culprit, then what else, pray tell, could cause it? I'm all ears.
"Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth." Arthur Conan Doyle.

Oh, and I have heard back from Sean. He is finally settled into his new position and will be starting on our little follow-up project on this. I'll keep you posted.

[VAB2013]

Thank you Will! Glad to know your follow up project is underway! I think the intentional creation of a trail die via polishing of the die is an excellent idea!

You know... I have been hesitant to let my mind disprove BJ's theory simply because I think the world of him and Jeanie! And I know BJ is extremely intelligent and knowledgeable and very highly regarded in the world of numismatics! But we cannot let these types of things keep us from continuing research. I admire you for deciding to tackle this subject, which has been a known grey area for quite some time now!