2004P-1DR-015 (?) Die Marker Question

[engine823]

Okay this is a two part question. First I believe I have found the 2004P-1DR-015 listed in Copper Coins. All but one of the die markers seem to be present.
That being said I have found other minor Doubled Dies before that seemed to have some and not other die markers. Is it not the same coin if all die markers are not present??? Some seem exactly right then one may be missing????
Sorry If I ask too many questions. I am really trying to learn and be able to identify as many coins on my own as possible but some things are still confusing.
Here are the pics of my possible 2004P-1DR-015:tinysmile_eyebrow_t

[twoyankees]

Hey Engine, If you can find all but one, I'd call it good, nice job. Tom

[liveandievarieties]

Great question engine. There are other members who are far more adept at articulating an answer to your question, but in a nutshell:
the markers chosen to distinguish individual dies can occur at any time in a die's life. Sometimes in early die state specimens, there will be no appreciable markers visible. Die markers are often stage specific (A, B, C etc.) as a means of determining specific states of of the die's life. Some markers can wear away- such as a gouge, while others will develop more dramatically like a die chip or crack. The absence of a single marker should never negate attribution of a die variety.
As Bob has said before, there are often many markers that he doesn't list on coppercoins, choosing to highlight the most clearly seen and recognizable.

[twoyankees]

Hey Chris, It's your duty to be cool, adept and articulated, thats why we appreciate you so much on the LCR.Nuff Said. Tom

[engine823]

So that somewhat makes it harder, having to try to determine if it is a new variety or the same coin in a later or earlier die state. For example my coin I posted, It appears to be pretty much the same as 2004P-1DR-015 but since it is such a minor variety it is hard?? :~
It isn't really an issue on major DD's because the main part of the doubling talks for itself but on MINOR DD's it can be hard.
What is your personnal opinion on my coin I listed?
I also am pretty sure now I found the 2006P-1DO-020 the other day because one of the major die markers was there but only one of the 2 or 3 given on CC's. I marked it a (??) but with your explanation I feel safe calling it now!!
Thanks!!! I was looking at CC's as an "all or nothing" list and was strugglng identifing minor DD's.:)

[Maineman750]

Chris has it summed up nicely EDS,MDS,LDS,wear,circulation, and polishing can change things.Get a few good matches or even one distinct marker and be happy with that. On a rare coin I might be a little more anal but on most let it go at that.

Just checked cc and I'd be confident in #15

[liveandievarieties]

To be totally honest with you- while I sock away some of the moderate modern doubled dies (like some of the less than major 2006s), I simply don't keep any of the really minor coins. I sell for a living and the demand for minors is somewhat weak. We've got several members who have done incredible work (ya'll know who you are!), helping to distinguish dies and their markers, but I'm absolutely not an authority on the subject of the many minors out there.
I'll always be happy tell you exactly what I do know or have learned, but if I can't give an answer with 100% confidence in attribution of a variety, I won't blow smoke.

Your question was awesome, and every bit of it valid, worth asking. If we didn't question, we couldn't learn.

[engine823]

THANKS! The lesser minor DD's help keep my interest until I get to the next better one!! I like to find stuff and it's a great learning experience to try and attribute them. Thanks for your help!

[liveandievarieties]

Hope nobody thinks I was dogging on minors, you make a good point- attributing them keeps you sharp and on top of things. You may well be more experienced in many dies than I.

[hasfam]

THANKS! The lesser minor DD's help keep my interest until I get to the next better one!! I like to find stuff and it's a great learning experience to try and attribute them. Thanks for your help!

Good for you Engine. I feel the same way. The attributing of minor varieties is like daily exercise, keeps me sharp and toned and reasonably sharp in a very demanding hobby.

[dvn]

I can't speak for others, but as an attributer, this is what I like to see happening. The collector attributing his/her own varieties. In some cases it can be difficult, but the reward and feeling of accomplishment is well worth it.

Well done!

Billy

[engine823]

Billy what do you think? Am I on the right trail with my attribution on this coin??

[twoyankees]

Engine, while Im not that good at explaining the tech side of things, any time a person such as yourself, gets to the point of searching for markers to try to do your own attributions, is a great leap forward for you as a collector. Like I said, good job, keep doing what your doing, you're deffinately on the right track:) Tom

[dvn]

Billy what do you think? Am I on the right trail with my attribution on this coin??

Yes, you are on track.

Billy

[engine823]

Thanks!!!! All of you are great!!!! I am really trying to dive into this and learn as much as I can, but I am sure I will need many more question and answer sessions!!!:)
Thanks for cheering me on and helping me when I need it!:LOL_Hair:

[mustbebob]

It really is not practical to list all markers on a coin. Some of them may have 10 or 20 of them. Chris is correct in that most attributer's will list the the most prevalent ones.
The statement I use most often here is that the doubling itself should ALWAYS be the first thing you look at. Look at it carefully, and match it to the photos on whichever site you find it. I can normally attribute a coin based on the anomaly itself.
When there are similar dies, then you can search for markers. The addition or absence of a marker does not disprove a match. As stated, markers can happen at any time.