1969-S Doubled VDB

[jaboyd]

I have a 1969-S with an extreme doubled VDB. It actuall appears that there are 2 VDBs...slightly overlapping. Has anyone ever seen or heard of this? I'd appreciate any feedback!

Thanks,
Jeff

[nightowl]

Ive heard of them, always look for em, never saw 1 though.

[jaboyd]

Any ideas on rarity/value of this variety? I know the well known DDO 1969-S, with die doubling on IN GOD WE TRUST, LIBERTY, and 1969, are quite rare and valuable. I have a magnifed photo if desired.

Thanks...Jeff

[kloccwork419]

YES. Pics are always the best!!!!

[jaboyd]

Here is a picture (not great quality)...

[1sgret]

There is someone on E-bay who sells these from time to time in the featured area of ERROR Coins.
I don't remember how much he starts out at and he runs them almost weekly. You might try there to see if he has a listing or do a search for the item. Just make sure you get to the arena of Error Coins to do your search. Good Luck!

[trails]

Not to be a kill joy of sorts, but that form of doubling is called "machine doubling" and like the 1955 poor man's double die, it has found a nitch as being a semi collectible.

BJ Neff

[jaboyd]

That doesn't look like machine doubling in any way whatsoever. It isn't flat...its actually an engraved second VDB. Maybe the picture just isn't of good quality to tell.

[1sgret]

However Trails is correct. Mechanical Doubling is found on the coin itself as "The resulting coins will have two sets of design images displaced so that two images of each feature will be visible in approximately equal heights" Most error reference books show details of the "1969-S" and not on the VDB as an example of this Mechanical Doubling. Hope this helps you out.

Yes there are collectors' who collect them. I have a couple in my own collection that I use as examples.

[trails]

Machine doubling on an incused design will copy that design with the same results, another incused design. Since that part is raised on the die, it does not act like a raised design on a coin hitting a recess in the die. You have to sit back and think what happens with machine doubling and visualize the coin hitting the VDB and the results of that impact.

BJ Neff

[jaboyd]

I understand perfectly clear the diference between machine doubling and die doubling. But the fact is that NOTHING ELSE on the coin is doubled in any way whatsoever...machine or die. It is ONLY the VDB that is doubled. Is the VDB engraved during a seperate process that would cause it to double but nothing else at all??

[trails]

The VDB is not engraved separately; it is on the master die which in turn through the working hub, transfers it to the working die. This is a case of isolated machine doubling and nothing more than that.

Isolated machine doubling can happen anywhere and I have seen it most commonly on the mint mark, where only a portion of that design element is doubled and nothing else.

If we look at this portion of the die (the lower part of Lincoln's bust) we would see a recessed area withe a raised design (the VBD) inside that recess. Now imagine the coin bouncing up and hitting that area. The raised portion of the coin where the VDB is encounters nothing but a recess and the RAISED design (VDB). There is nothing else to double because it hits nothing, except the VDB, which being raised on the die will indent the coin.

BJ Neff

[jaboyd]

That all makes sense except that the mint marks are punched in the dies spearately and are not on the master die correct?? So if the lettering is doubled AND the mint mark is doubled it is NOT a doubled die but rather machined doubling. So in this case it is still machine doubling??

[trails]

Mint marks were punched into the working die prior to 1990 and after that, they were added to the master die.

You are correct in saying that mint marks that are doubled with the date being doubled could be machine doubling, but there are instances where this is not true.

It also applies to coins minted after 1989. You can have doubling on the mint mark and on the date and it is still a doubled die. Refer to the 1995-D Lincoln cent obverse doubled dies for an example of this phenomena.

The key is known how machine doubling occurs and once you have a very firm grasp of that concept, you will be able to tell any doubled die from a machine doubling.

BJ Neff

[CCC]

Here is a link to a example: http://www.lincolncentresource.com/doubledies/1995Dddo3.html

Machine Doubling can also happen on the reverse. This 58 D is a single example. Also I beleive this to be a die fatigue coin due to the metal flow going towards the rim. I hope this helps

[1sgret]

That' s a nice example of MDD on the reverse. I have seen it on 1957's on the Obverse however not on the reverse. Also I think I recognize that 1995-D and Brad took some excellent pictures. (LOL)

[CCC]

That' s a nice example of MDD on the reverse. I have seen it on 1957's on the Obverse however not on the reverse. Also I think I recognize that 1995-D and Brad took some excellent pictures. (LOL)

That is why I used it. It is a nice example.

[1sgret]

That is why I used it. It is a nice example.

:tinysmile_hmm_t:Why "Thank You" David. You can tell today is the start of my weekend.:LOL_Hair:

[CCC]

:tinysmile_twink_t2:
:tinysmile_hmm_t:Why "Thank You" David. You can tell today is the start of my weekend.:LOL_Hair:

It's my work weekend. :( Have Fun Searching.:tinysmile_twink_t2:

[mustbebob]

jaboyd,
BJ Neff is absolutely correct about the VDB on this coin being machine doubled. He mentioned it in one of his replies, and I don't know if it was missed or what, but the VDB is incused on the struck coin, not a raised design element. This means that the VDB on the die itself is a raised element. Therefore, any machine doubling in this area would not have the same characteristics as a machine doubled raised design element.
Believe me when I say this particular anomaly on this particular coin has been well discussed for many years.
It is still real cool...but there is no double strike or doubled die associated with this coin.