second opinion please

[Trenton2626]

I took my 3 finest coins to my local coin shop for a price quote out of curiosity. they were 1946 s/d, 1941 ddo 2, and 1956 d/d #8. he inspected them and said they are cool coins but worthless and said noone would buy them.... While they were the correct coins, I messed up by *sigh* cleaning them and bringing back their fomer glory. I never thought it would effect the value so adversely, and I cant wrap my mind around why it would. So was his prognoses correct and by me cleaning them I made the value hit rock bottom? Also how do you spot subtle errors with all that petina (gunk) on it?

[Maineman750]

You may find a buyer for them but I can understand a dealer not wanting them. You certainly have lowered the value by cleaning but to really say worthless, we would need pics.

[cimperialis]

The coin dealer was wrong that the coins are worthless if they are correctly attributed. There are many members here that value DDOs, RPMs, and OMMs. It was probably a bad call to clean them if you used something like lemon juice or other chemically abrasive mixtures. I don't know about the cents being rock bottom in price, but cleaning can significantly reduce the price of a coin. If there's organic gunk on the coin, you can use acetone to rinse it off. This should allow you to better inspect details.

[liveandievarieties]

As Sean said, acetone is about the only acceptable cleaning agent I'd reccommend. It removes only organic material and leaves the coin in it's natural, unaltered state.

To address your question of value- take the 46-S/D. Hypothetically speaking, if the coin were in AU condition it'd have a value somewhere in the $150 range. But if harshly cleaned you'll have a hard time finding a buyer for the coin at much more than $20. A cleaned coin is a damaged coin- I'd rather have this rare variety with a huge gash on the reverse than have one that is chrome-like.

And as for taking your die varieties to a "regular" coin dealer, that's like trying to sell your Picasso at a craft fair. Die varieties are a specialized field that require extensive knowledge and experience. Most coin dealers have their own area of preference, whether Morgan dollars or bullion, neither of which can I claim to be highly experienced in. Your best bet for finding people who appreciate the coins you do is a place like this, a club or eBay if you're wanting to sell them.

[RWBILLER]

My coin dealer is a great guy and we have traded, sold, and bought many coins between us. But when it comes to varaitys and errors - forget about it. He only deals with mostly business and proof coins and some major vararitys. That doesn't make him a bad guy - he just doesn't deal with that stuff. As far a's cleaned coins - I personally, would never buy a known cleaned coin.
Rog

[Trenton2626]

I didnt scratch the coins or anything....they were just dark dark brown from being handled so many years and I took a soft cloth and warm water to make like shiny new again. I thought shiny would bring better premium but I learned a tough lesson. thanks for all the replys you helped me enormouslu.

[Trenton2626]

As Sean said, acetone is about the only acceptable cleaning agent I'd reccommend. It removes only organic material and leaves the coin in it's natural, unaltered state.

To address your question of value- take the 46-S/D. Hypothetically speaking, if the coin were in AU condition it'd have a value somewhere in the $150 range. But if harshly cleaned you'll have a hard time finding a buyer for the coin at much more than $20. A cleaned coin is a damaged coin- I'd rather have this rare variety with a huge gash on the reverse than have one that is chrome-like.

And as for taking your die varieties to a "regular" coin dealer, that's like trying to sell your Picasso at a craft fair. Die varieties are a specialized field that require extensive knowledge and experience. Most coin dealers have their own area of preference, whether Morgan dollars or bullion, neither of which can I claim to be highly experienced in. Your best bet for finding people who appreciate the coins you do is a place like this, a club or eBay if you're wanting to sell them.

your picasso analogy really hit home...definately shed some light, and gave future insight.

[liveandievarieties]

If you only used water and a cloth, all may not be lost yet- depends on how hard you worked the coins. Since they're not cleaned with chemicals or something like copper cleaner, I'd wrap them in some kind of coarse paper, the consistency of construction paper, or a roughed up paper towel. Keep them there for a couple of years and they will most likely regain their original patina, or close to it.

Which dealer did you go to? I know several guys over in Tacoma- Uh, can't remember the guy's name now... he's in the old (flour mill?) antique mall. Also- I'd recommend Chris Holden- he's more of an error dealer (coins and paper money) as opposed to die varieties, but a hell of a good guy to buy from. I'm over there the second week of every April for the PNNA show.

[jfines69]

If you could post pics that would be helpful... If you clean coins make sure they are ones you never intend to sale for the value will be less... I have cleaned my own coins because I will not sell them!!!

[coppercoins]

First thing is to have your coins identified as to what they are by a reputable source.

Second thing is to determine whether the cleaning just hurt the value - or destroyed the value of your coins.

One thing to remember is that most dealers - I would say something on the order of 90% - don't have a clue and wouldn't know a die variety or error if it hit them in the face. Most of what they know is in the generalist market, usually leaning toward gold and silver. Most don't have time, energy, or interest in Lincoln cents.

It sounds to me like the opinion given to you was just that - an opinion of what THEY think without any real knowledge of the market as a whole.

I can tell you that if you have a genuine example of the 1946S/D that shows the variety well, I would buy it for $20 at a minimum regardless of whether it is cleaned, and I know what I'm doing. So that much right there proves him wrong.

[Trenton2626]

jfines, I think thats going to be a good rule of thumb for me. I shouldnt care about the value if im not selling it.

Coppercoins- wow, I would've thought dealers would know everything about this stuff, seeing how they own a coin store. But your absolutely right about being verified by a reputable source, but understand, I thought these dealers were just that. I assumed since they own a shop they would be experts like the people on this site. so from now on ill just send my coins in to be verified, which I shouldve done from square 1.

[liveandievarieties]

Nobody can be an expert on everything Trenton, that's why I firmly believe you can find something underpriced in nearly every shop.

[liveandievarieties]

I have cleaned my own coins because I will not sell them!!!

WHAT???? :squigglemouth:

[Trenton2626]

WHAT???? :squigglemouth:

I think I understand what hes saying...because if I found a 1992 d close AM or a 1969 s ddo I wouldnt sell it either. I would keep them kind of as trophies of my hard work and time spent. Of course thats not to say I dont have a price:LOL_Hair:

[liveandievarieties]

Cleaning rare coins because you won't sell them? Quite the self-fulfiling prophecy.
That's like saying I love my '69 Camaro SS so much that I beat the side panels in with a baseball bat.

[Trenton2626]

Cleaning rare coins because you won't sell them? Quite the self-fulfiling prophecy.
That's like saying I love my '69 Camaro SS so much that I beat the side panels in with a baseball bat.

I dont think of it like that....i just wouldnt want to look at a dirty coin my whole life, when I could shine it up and feel good about it...so I guess it would be like having a stock camaro ss and putting in a cd player and tv screens in the seats

[RWBILLER]

we get your point!
rog

[Trenton2626]

we get your point!
rog

guess I went overboard a bit...sorry bout that

[jfines69]

Cleaning rare coins because you won't sell them? Quite the self-fulfiling prophecy.
That's like saying I love my '69 Camaro SS so much that I beat the side panels in with a baseball bat.
Dang... To think I only beat the roof in... :LOL_Hair:... I know what you are saying Chris... Cleaning (conservation is what some may call it ) IMHO removes the contaminants from the coin... Especially the corrosive ones... In order to remove all the gunk requires some of the petina to be removed... The petina will eventually return but the metal will not... Just my opinion!!!

[coppercoins]

There's a difference between removing the surface of a coin to 'shine it up' and removing contaminants off the surface of a coin to preserve it. The first is called 'cleaning' and should not be done under any circumstances. The second is called 'conserving' and should be done with care and knowledge or it will go wrong.

The mere idea that polishing coins because YOU think that looks better is actually quite selfish when you consider the fact that we are a lot more temporary than coins, and those coins we have in our possession presently are merely being care for by us for future generations to enjoy. "Cleaning" them ruins them for ever more, and is just wrong no matter what.

[SuddenAdoration]

If there's organic gunk on the coin, you can use acetone to rinse it off. This should allow you to better inspect details.

I had a coin dealer suggest olive oil and baking soda... has anyone tried that?

[coppercoins]

And Trenton - just because a used car salesman has a Mustang on his lot doesn't mean he belongs to a Mustang club or could tell you byt he VIN number exactly what day the car was produced. He is too busy selling cars to bother with one model or make.

In coins, dealers do the same thing - they deal with coins as a subject, often without specializing in anything because they don't have the time or resources to do so. They generally buy at a certain level and sell at a certain level to make a living. They don't have the time to go through boxes of pennies looking for doubled dies, so they often know little to nothing about them.

Considering a dealer an expert in coins because they buy and sell them is a very common mistake novice collectors make.

Have you watched Pawn Stars? You see how often they call in an 'expert' because they don't know the subject well enough to know they aren't being stiffed...well, dealers of coins often do the same thing, if they have a good reputation and know collectors who are specialists willing to help the dealers. They either call upon the specialist for advice or they give the seller the specialists information so the specialist can make a fair offer on the coins. I had this arrangement with a number of dealers over time. Every time they would get something in the shop that looked odd, they would call on me for help or to make an offer for the coins in subject. Conversely, every time someone would find me because I was a "coin guy" and they had a pile of silver dollars - I would send them to the right dealer for a decent offer.

Never will anyone cover every base there is to cover in coins, nor will there be anyone who could answer pretty much any specialist question about any given coin. I don't even attempt to answer questions about how errors were made, I simply know enough to tell you with relative accuracy that a coin is an error and is not damaged. But since I do not study them, I don't pretend to know anything about how they are made. If I get a question about them, I point them toward any one of the four error specialists I know. These error specialists will, in turn, send people my way with Lincoln cent die varieties because that's what I know.

[coppercoins]

So basically, in short - asking dealers about specific information regarding die varieties (doubled dies and the like) is probably not a good idea, especially if the dealer doesn't specifically sell that sort of coin, and even more especially if they pretend they know stuff they don't. I've run into dealers before who (in their own minds) couldn't be stumped with questions about coins. If they didn't know the right answer, they would simply blow smoke that would sound right to the collector.

[Trenton2626]

coppercoins- the " cleaning being selfish" explanation is a cool way to look at it! (as "the bigger picture"). "just holding the coin for future collectors" (my favorite part). It changed the way I look at coin collecting in some aspects, thanks for that.

also, your statement about dealers seems to be heavily agreed with and it wont be an assumption ill make again.

[Maineman750]

I had a coin dealer suggest olive oil and baking soda... has anyone tried that?


I wouldn't recommend it. Acetone or Verdi-care are all I will use.

[RWBILLER]

Hi
Tell you a true story. My wife's. Uncle passed away about 5 years ago. Needless to say he was a great guy. He also was a noted (regional) coin collector. He had most of the modern day collections complete. About a year after he died, his two sons asked me to look at his collections. I was drooling / all I had heard from 1967 when I met my wife was how great his collection was. I opened the Lincoln book first 1909-1940. To my surprise - your right - all was cleaned. I mean cleaned!! All his collections were cleaned. Even 1990 cents were cleaned. Well I told them that I had no idea on value since everything was cleaned. I never asked them what happened. This is my opinion - and yes I took my meds - anyone can do what they like but when collecting coins and your going to clean them to look like trophies, don't disgrace our beloved hobby by doing that. I can see people making a mistake. My dad once refinished one of my stickley chairs - but please in the future - leave it alone, sell it, etc. Maybe you can save enough money up to buy a in-cleaned shiny one!
Rog

[Trenton2626]

rwbiller- you should have told them they were worth $20 but give $40 cause your a nice guy..j/k...i dont buy coins otherwise I would buy a shiny one. I just like finding them. some coins just have to be cleaned though, because some I find are pure black and starting what looks like corrosion so in order to save the variety I clean it with water and a cloth. other times I clean it so im able to see errors, I dont just clean them to clean them. im not a bad guy I promise

[RWBILLER]

Ok - your forgiven - isn't LCR fun! We. Still don't have pictures of the coins! Sounds like you fit right in with the rest of us crazy coin collectors!!
Welcome again to LCR
Rog

[Trenton2626]

I sent one of the coins to bob for verification and I forgot where I put the other 2. there in one of my coats im sure. but either way I cant take pics my cell camera is jacked up and pics are blurry. I tried taken pics of another coin today. thanks for the warm welcome by the way, and I wasnt a CRAZY coin collector till I came to this forum...lol

[Maineman750]

and I wasnt a CRAZY coin collector till I came to this forum...lol

Well, you are now "Officially Crazy"..welcome to the club:LOL_Hair:

[BadThad]

Man oh man.....don't clean your coins! Take some time, read and learn proper conservation techniques but DO NOT rub them with a cloth under water.

[BadThad]

I had a coin dealer suggest olive oil and baking soda... has anyone tried that?

That is a SURE PATH to complete destruction of youR coins. NEVER DO THIS TO A COIN.

[RWBILLER]

Woke up this morning - this is all a fish story!
Rog

[Trenton2626]

fish story???:squigglemouth:

[RWBILLER]

Just dreaming and we were on a tugboat catching fish - I know I have wierd. Dreams
Rog

[jfines69]

Imagine how boring this thread would have been if the words "Clean" and "Coin" were not used in the same sentence... Thanks everyone for your thoughts!!!

[Trenton2626]

Just dreaming and we were on a tugboat catching fish - I know I have wierd. Dreams
Rog

you and me were fishing? Was I cleaning my coins on the boat?

I never thought this thread would go from cleaning coins to rwbillers dreams about fishing...lol...this forum is too funny

[hasfam]

Very interesting thread and a lot of interesting things said.
Over the years I have made acquaintances with people who collect coins and eventually they will invite me to look at their albums. I cannot recall ever looking at one of these collections and not seeing all the coins harshly cleaned. I would just shake my head.
On the subject of dealers, I knew a dealer back in the 1990's who had a coin shop in Evansville, IN. His name was Steve Schenk. He was and probably still is an avid varieties collector and CONECA member. I'd hang out there whenever I could and when it was slow, he and I would talk and talk about varieties and errors. Great times and he was a great guy. We both loved the varieties hobby. I guess there are exceptions and he was one of them.

[Trenton2626]

Very interesting thread and a lot of interesting things said.
Over the years I have made acquaintances with people who collect coins and eventually they will invite me to look at their albums. I cannot recall ever looking at one of these collections and not seeing all the coins harshly cleaned. I would just shake my head.
On the subject of dealers, I knew a dealer back in the 1990's who had a coin shop in Evansville, IN. His name was Steve Schenk. He was and probably still is an avid varieties collector and CONECA member. I'd hang out there whenever I could and when it was slow, he and I would talk and talk about varieties and errors. Great times and he was a great guy. We both loved the varieties hobby. I guess there are exceptions and he was one of them.

did you ever see his private collection outside of his shop? he must have had some incredible varieties.

[hasfam]

did you ever see his private collection outside of his shop? he must have had some incredible varieties.
He had a large standup safe in the store, if I recall correctly and kept most of his collection in there. I never saw all of it, but sometimes if we were talking about something in particular, he would go into the safe and pull somethings out to look at.
Funny, I remember asking him how he got started with the coin shop. He said he was always looking at coins at home for varieties and errors and the rolls, boxes and piles kept getting bigger and bigger over the years until his wife told him to 'get this stuff out of here. I want my house back.' So he opened up a small coin shop where he could search in peace, talk to other coin collectors and have a place to store his collection.

[Amadauss]

I cleaned some early on with mild soap and water then rinse in distilled not knowing any better but nothing of importance. Never clean now but I have tried the Verdicare with success. But remember on a comment I made about being at an auction and several coins were cleaned and tagged as such and I was very surprised at the dollar amounts being offered for them. Same price as if they weren't cleaned. A guy next to me told me at auctions it doesn't matter. My guess now would be those guys buy them and re-sell them to someone not knowing any better and not listing them as being cleaned.

[Trenton2626]

I cleaned some early on with mild soap and water then rinse in distilled not knowing any better but nothing of importance. Never clean now but I have tried the Verdicare with success. But remember on a comment I made about being at an auction and several coins were cleaned and tagged as such and I was very surprised at the dollar amounts being offered for them. Same price as if they weren't cleaned. A guy next to me told me at auctions it doesn't matter. My guess now would be those guys buy them and re-sell them to someone not knowing any better and not listing them as being cleaned.

now you have to ask....is that morally sound? is it the buyers fault for not knowing or the sellers for not telling?

[seal006]

now you have to ask....is that morally sound? is it the buyers fault for not knowing or the sellers for not telling?

I think honestly the ultimate responsibility falls on the buyer. If you do not want to be ripped off, it is YOUR responsibility to educate yourself on what you are buying. This goes for more than just coins. Now with this in mind, if a dealer tells a potential buyer that the coin has not been cleaned in his/her pitch, or if point blank asked, then I feel the seller is most definitely WRONG. Coins have always been a way for folks to make money. Large amounts or small. Greed is a very powerful character for someone to have. My rule of thumb is to be 100% honest. The bottom line to my ramblings...EDUCATE YOURSELF. That is why I am here on LCR. The knowledge I have gained from this site in such a short period of time cannot be measured.

[Bri]

And as for taking your die varieties to a "regular" coin dealer, that's like trying to sell your Picasso at a craft fair. Die varieties are a specialized field that require extensive knowledge and experience. Most coin dealers have their own area of preference, whether Morgan dollars or bullion, neither of which can I claim to be highly experienced in. Your best bet for finding people who appreciate the coins you do is a place like this, a club or eBay if you're wanting to sell them.[/QUOTE]


Great point Chris! I love the analogy Selling a Picasso at a craft fair, you hit the nail right on the head with that one. Most coin dealers are oblivious to the variety world and could care less because they are making a living at doing what they do best and that is supplying their customers with the coins they are demanding for their investment portfolios or whatever the case may be.

[jfines69]

I believe it is the responsibility of the seller to be truthful of what is being sold especially when it may affect the overall value!!!

[Maineman750]

I believe it is the responsibility of the seller to be truthful of what is being sold especially when it may affect the overall value!!!


I agree Jim, however, not all sellers have the required knowledge. So both partys are responsible equally :smile:

[jallengomez]

I agree Jim, however, not all sellers have the required knowledge. So both partys are responsible equally :smile:

And that is a huge, huge caveat. A seller should never lie about a coin. The problem is that a lot of sellers have no clue that their coin has been cleaned, or that it's a counterfeit, etc.... This is why the ultimate responsibility is on the buyer IMO.

[Amadauss]

At the auction, it was listed when cleaned which I thought was being truthful to the bidders so they can decide. I think a lot of the buyers knew what they were looking for and doing. What could happen is they buy them tagged as cleaned and then re-sell them in some cases without stating the coin was cleaned. Like many have said, the buyer should be up to snuff on knowing whether cleaned or not and if not, shouldn't be buying or at least take along someone that might have a much better eye for it. The seller if trying to rip people off, they have to live with it.

[foundinrolls]

Hi All,
Just a few thoughts....

The olive oil and baking soda routine is something that Early Copper collectors used to do to colonials, old Large cents and Half cents. It used to be an accepted practice but fortunately, I don't think that they do that anymore. I remember being at a coin show many years ago and a well respected dealer was sitting behind his table just brushing away at a nice Large Cent that was a little green. He was using a soft bristled brush of some kind. By the end of the day, most if not all of the green verdigris was removed from the coin and all the pitting was exposed. I would guess that many of the older coppers that you see that are pitted have been brushed with olive oil and baking soda to remove what was in the pits:-)

In general, collectors like to have their coins in their originally found conditions. Cleaning is still a no no in my book. "Conserving" a coin is best left to professionals in that field. The coins found as I search through rolls are seldom in need of conserving so I just put them in 2X2s to preserve them in the state in which I find them.

Most people who clean a coin will alter the surfaces at least a little bit and altered surfaces usually means less money if the coin is to be sold.

As for dealers in errors and die varieties....It has been mentioned. It is an area of specifics in collecting that most dealers cannot keep track of. Ask coppercoins how many different RPMs there are for 1960 D cents and the answer will be quite surprising. Some are worth more and some are worth less and it would be impossible for the "average" dealer to keep tabs on everything. I have also seen dealers label machine doubled coins as doubled dies and I have seen 1972 DDO cents labeled incorrectly as to which variety they are and sold for multiples of what they should have been sold for. You have to stick with experts in the field in order to get fair money for your die varieties.

I can't tell you how many times I've heard this...."Your coin is not a doubled die....it is machine doubled....it's not worth anything....but, I'll give you ten bucks for it". I know what I was showing someone. This is why I seldom, if ever sell anything. I just like to collect:-)

Have Fun,
Bill

[Trenton2626]

thanks for everyones input youve all helped me a great deal and I hope some of you veterans got something out of it too.

[jfines69]

I agree Jim, however, not all sellers have the required knowledge. So both partys are responsible equally :smile:
You are correct in that both parties are equally responsible... But shouldn't the seller, knowing an individual is not that knowledgeable, be forward with the fact they are not knowledgeable themselves???

[Maineman750]

You are correct in that both parties are equally responsible... But shouldn't the seller, knowing an individual is not that knowledgeable, be forward with the fact they are not knowledgeable themselves???


Only if they know:LOL_Hair:

[lara4228]

How can you tell if a coin has been cleaned or not?

[Maineman750]

How can you tell if a coin has been cleaned or not?


That would be a great new thread lara, why don't you start a new one so we will remember where the info is instead of trying to remember "second opinion" ?

[jfines69]

Only if they know:LOL_Hair:
:sign10::sign10::sign10:
So if they know that you don't know that they don't know that you don't either then what??? :sign10:

[Maineman750]

:sign10::sign10::sign10:
So if they know that you don't know that they don't know that you don't either then what??? :sign10:


Then it's a tie.:tinysmile_hmm_t:

[jfines69]

Then it's a tie.:tinysmile_hmm_t:
:sign10::sign10::sign10: