Nikon vs Canon

[ray_parkhurst]

Finally sprung for a Canon camera to compare head-on to my Nikon. I've been wondering if Canon's EFSC "Quiet" mode would help with coin photos.

The comparison is between my existing Nikon D7000 ($1400) and a Canon T2i ($500). The setup is Bellows mounted on modified Microscope Stand, with Rodenstock 75mm f4 Apo Rodagon D M1:1 Lens.

edited to say that the jury is still out. First impressions are not always what they seem to be...Ray

[Antiquity]

Ive been looking at the T2i, let me know what you think, for the price point it seems like a steal......

[ray_parkhurst]

Turned out the first comparison shots were not fair to the Nikon. I had turned off all sharpening on the Nikon, but the Canon was still set to sharpen. This created a false impression.

After turning off the sharpening and trying again, here are the 100% Pixel level details between the two:

Nikon
http://i943.photobucket.com/albums/ad273/rparkhurst/Nikon20Crop.jpg

Canon
http://i943.photobucket.com/albums/ad273/rparkhurst/Canon20Crop.jpg

The result is the same, the Canon clearly wins for sharpness, though the difference is less dramatic than first impressions.

I'm expecting the differences to become larger for higher mag shots. That's an experiment for later today...Ray

[Rollem]

Well Ray, all I can see so far is $900 LOL

Any other reason for me to spend $900 Please tell us :angel:

James

[jfines69]

IMHO the nikon shows more of the detail than the canon... Especially the "T" and surrounding area... However that could just be the lighting!!!

[ray_parkhurst]

The Canon is not as robust as the Nikon against blown-out details. The loss in detail at the rim near the T is blown-out, not really lost. The lighting is exactly the same between the two.

Where the extra sharpness is most apparent is in the midtone regions with a lot of texture. There is a small dent at the bottom of the T, and just above it is a small group of bumps. The texture of the bumps shows much better on the Canon. It's this midtone texture at 100% mag that is the main difference between these images.

[RWBILLER]

Looking at 2i also.
Rog

[ray_parkhurst]

Well, after living with the T2i for a while now and running it through its paces, it is "permanently" mounted on the bellows as my numismatic photography camera. I've found the following in comparisons with the D7000:

T2i is immune to shutter vibration effects. This only shows up on high mag (variety) photos and at 100% pixel detail at lower mags.
T2i gives better color representation with less fuss and post processing
Canon tethering software has better (bigger) live view window and a live histogram, which is very useful
D7000 has better immunity to blown-out highlights
Nikon tethering software has better camera adjustability functions, and better Manual exposure control functions

So my recommendation if anyone is thinking of getting a new camera for coin pics is to go with the T2i. For <$500 it is a steal compared with the Nikon, at least for functionality. Not sure yet about reliability, etc but I've never heard anything that would steer me away from Canon in this area.

Ray

[coppercoins]

I personally like the Canon shot much better.

Ray - I have been very busy of late and have not responded to your PMs. Believe me, I am not ignoring you or your assistance in this matter. This, however, must go on a lower priority for now, at least until I get the Jorjo lamps and test them. They could be the solution to most of my problems. More later...

[RWBILLER]

Ray
Thankyou - we have decided on the 2i - where did you buy it?
Rog

[papascoins]

I don't know much about photography. The Canon pic, it seems, is only sharp, or 'focused' as you go closer to the center. Looks like the Nikon keeps its focus throughout the shot. (It's like you said, 'blown-out' details near the edges.) Just my opinion!!!!!!

Looks great though! Maybe someday for me.

[ray_parkhurst]

No worries Chuck. Just let me know when you are ready.

The Jansjo's are great, though I highly recommend building some form of the "Directors" (Diffuser-Reflector) I've been developing to minimize hotspotting and chroma noise problems they can cause because they are such pinpoint sources. They create EXTREME local contrast. That said, I've seen some excellent results with two un-diffused Jansjos at 10 and 2 with a diffused one at 12. The 12:00 one gives an overall diffused illumination that reduces the local shadow contrast of the other two lights.

I've built a range of "Directors" for various purposes, including a very effective one for high magnification. I've published results for most of these on another forum's Coin Photography subforum. I wish we had a photography sub-forum on LCR. The posts I've made here recently have garnered a lot of interest and it would be nice to have them segregated from the rest of the traffic as they are pretty specific...Ray

[ray_parkhurst]

Bought mine on Amazon for $499, free Super Saver shipping...Ray

[Roller]

I see the T2i for $470.00, free shipping (body only). Was going to get the D5100 but for the price I am looking at the 2i as well. I mainly need the live view that I don't have with my D70. The 18 meg of the 2i does not hurt either. As for the jansjo, Ikea is out of them (in Florida anyway) and they're going for $17 on the net. Got 2 of them which also got me free shipping.

[ray_parkhurst]

I don't know much about photography. The Canon pic, it seems, is only sharp, or 'focused' as you go closer to the center. Looks like the Nikon keeps its focus throughout the shot. (It's like you said, 'blown-out' details near the edges.) Just my opinion!!!!!!

Looks great though! Maybe someday for me.

I don't see how there could be any focus or sharpness issue across either image since these are just small crops fairly near the center of the overall image. If this was a full image, not a crop, the story would be different...Ray

[ray_parkhurst]

I see the T2i for $470.00, free shipping (body only). Was going to get the D5100 but for the price I am looking at the 2i as well. I mainly need the live view that I don't have with my D70. The 18 meg of the 2i does not hurt either. As for the jansjo, Ikea is out of them (in Florida anyway) and they're going for $17 on the net. Got 2 of them which also got me free shipping.

So I spent $30 too much! And it wasn't that long ago. The price must be dropping rapidly on the T2i...Ray

[crocky28]

I took a photography class last semester and it seemed like the general consensus was that Nikon was the preferred brand among professional photographers. That said, you can get great shots with lesser cameras depending on what settings and lenses you use, and most importantly, depending on the photographer! Of course, if you have a really crummy point and shoot (which I have right now) you're never going to get that perfect close-up. Both are good brands, but I think Canons are the more user-friendly of the bunch. Also, it helps to use a tripod and a remote shutter, as no matter what you do, there will be a degree of camera shake when you press the button on the camera itself. If you shoot in the RAW you can usually make up for lighting or contrast problems in a program like Adobe Bridge's Camera Raw or Photoshop without sacrificing image quality. I think that when you compare high-end models of different camera makers it really comes down to a matter of personal preference - which one feels better, ease of use, etc.

[RWBILLER]

Ray
What's the difference between a 2i and 3i in layman's terms - is it worth the extra cost for coin pictures?
Rog

[ray_parkhurst]

Ray
What's the difference between a 2i and 3i in layman's terms - is it worth the extra cost for coin pictures?
Rog

The 3i has a few more features not relevant to coin photography. It does have an articulating LED display, so on bellows might be useful, but if you use the tethering software the display doesn't get used that much anyway. Sensors, processor, etc are identical so the important stuff is same on 2i as 3i. I didn't see any need to buy the 3i...Ray

[ray_parkhurst]

I took a photography class last semester and it seemed like the general consensus was that Nikon was the preferred brand among professional photographers. That said, you can get great shots with lesser cameras depending on what settings and lenses you use, and most importantly, depending on the photographer! Of course, if you have a really crummy point and shoot (which I have right now) you're never going to get that perfect close-up. Both are good brands, but I think Canons are the more user-friendly of the bunch. Also, it helps to use a tripod and a remote shutter, as no matter what you do, there will be a degree of camera shake when you press the button on the camera itself. If you shoot in the RAW you can usually make up for lighting or contrast problems in a program like Adobe Bridge's Camera Raw or Photoshop without sacrificing image quality. I think that when you compare high-end models of different camera makers it really comes down to a matter of personal preference - which one feels better, ease of use, etc.

Yeah, I've been shooting Nikon for years and it took me a long time to try the Canon. Finally decided to buy a dedicated coin camera and the T2i was on sale so I went for it. After all, common wisdom nowadays is the camera is fairly irrelevant to taking a good photo. But the issue for me came down to one thing: Electronic First Curtain Shutter (EFSC). This is the technology that eliminates the minute vibration caused by the shutter, and Nikon does not have it. Canon has had it for a long time, and the newest Sony models have it as well. It makes a little difference at 1:1, but a much bigger difference at 3:1 or higher. This is probably not an area your class covered I would guess...Ray

[BadThad]

For coins, the T2i is a no brainer IMO. I'd take the left over $$$ and buy some coins. LOL

I'm still of the school where these ultra res pictures can cause people to under-grade a coin. It's really not that representative of what a person see's with their eye, which is how coins are graded. It's too easy to over-analyze with deeply detailed pictures that reveal every single flaw. Of course, I still like the pictures, but less experienced collectors should proceed with caution when attempting to grade coins from these.

[ray_parkhurst]

For coins, the T2i is a no brainer IMO. I'd take the left over $$$ and buy some coins. LOL

I'm still of the school where these ultra res pictures can cause people to under-grade a coin. It's really not that representative of what a person see's with their eye, which is how coins are graded. It's too easy to over-analyze with deeply detailed pictures that reveal every single flaw. Of course, I still like the pictures, but less experienced collectors should proceed with caution when attempting to grade coins from these.


Yeah, even at 800 x 800 a lot more details show than you would see with a grading loupe. This is effectively 11x magnification on a 24" 1080p monitor. Usually grading is best at 7x or below, and typically 5x. So for grading, publishing at 400x400 may be a better way to go.

Here's the obverse of the last coin I photographed, at 400x400 instead of 800x800...Ray

http://i943.photobucket.com/albums/ad273/rparkhurst/IMG_0060_02.jpg

[BadThad]

Perfect example....to me, for web use and grading, the 400x400 picture is superior. I can now really see the luster without the distraction of all the little, fine hits to the coin. That's more representative of viewing the coin in hand IMO.

[BadThad]

My only other minor critique of your pictures is the failure to show cartwheel rays. When the lighting is diffused, it provides better overall lighting at the expense of being able to show cartwheeling rays extending out from the center. This is why in most cases I use unfiltered light.....to help show the cartwheel effect in the picture.

[ray_parkhurst]

My only other minor critique of your pictures is the failure to show cartwheel rays. When the lighting is diffused, it provides better overall lighting at the expense of being able to show cartwheeling rays extending out from the center. This is why in most cases I use unfiltered light.....to help show the cartwheel effect in the picture.

Yeah, but which angle of cartwheel do you show? Showing luster and color in the same shot is always tough, and what I shoot for is a "representation" or "suggestion" of luster since luster itself masks the surface details and makes grading more difficult. Tradeoffs, tradeoffs...Ray

[BadThad]

Yeah, but which angle of cartwheel do you show? Showing luster and color in the same shot is always tough, and what I shoot for is a "representation" or "suggestion" of luster since luster itself masks the surface details and makes grading more difficult. Tradeoffs, tradeoffs...Ray

I like the rays to be horizontal. You're absolutely correct, it's a tradeoff for sure. With directly light you get bright spots where it's difficult to see the surfaces well. It's really hard to show both luster and color. I cheat and use angles with the camera and lighting to show color. With a cheap setup and camera like I have, it's just how I have to do it. Here's a couple of examples that capture the cartwheeling:

[BadThad]

Here's one where I managed to capture color and a little cartwheel at the same time by moving my light around to just the right position:

http://www.lincolncentresource.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=43184&d=1320168876

[BadThad]

I find thru-slab shots to be the most difficult. If you're lighting is off at all, you get very bad glare. How's your slab shots?



http://www.lincolncentresource.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=43185&d=1320169021
http://www.lincolncentresource.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=43186&d=1320169021

[jallengomez]

I find thru-slab shots to be the most difficult. If you're lighting is off at all, you get very bad glare. How's your slab shots?



http://www.lincolncentresource.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=43185&d=1320169021
http://www.lincolncentresource.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=43186&d=1320169021

This is a hideous coin Thad, what with all that streakiness on the obverse. You should send it to me. You deserve better. :LOL_Hair:

[ray_parkhurst]

I find thru-slab shots to be the most difficult. If you're lighting is off at all, you get very bad glare. How's your slab shots?

Actually, this was a prime goal of my lighting setup, ie to get lighting that could be used for raw or slabbed coins and give similar and repeatable results. The photo below shows how the "smile directors" reflect off the slab surface. I can arrange them to give no direct glare visible over the coin image, having their direct reflections just outside the boundaries of the coin. Sorry for the scratches, these are always a problem with slab photos and I am loathe to polish slabs...Ray

http://i943.photobucket.com/albums/ad273/rparkhurst/IMG_0062_01.jpg

[BadThad]

AWESOME SLAB PIC!

IMO, you're definately in the top 10 coin picture takers on the web! Honestly, you could probably make some side money imaging coins for collectors.

[ray_parkhurst]

AWESOME SLAB PIC!

IMO, you're definately in the top 10 coin picture takers on the web! Honestly, you could probably make some side money imaging coins for collectors.

Thanks BT! I've imaged a few coins for folks and had a lot of fun with it...Ray

[coop]

Ray: Is that wrapping machine damage on the tail of the 1909's 9?