Trail Dies

[jallengomez]

I've been unable to get the cause of these out of my mind, and I think the mint probably has no clue. Ergo, I asked a physicist and this is what she said-

"They are likely caused by metal fatigue and stresses of the metal's surface area caused by stretching of the metals surface due to rapid and strong forces being exerted which are not perpendicular to its surface, causing an uneven pulling as the die stamps its surface. This is caused often by several factors, including imperfections in the dies, misalignment of the dies and/or surface area of the material being stamped..."

I believe the "not perpendicular to its surface" is the key. Leave it up the a physicist to kick the mint's *ss with an explanation. Ha ha.

[Chugly]

That is one of the few plausible explanations I have heard regarding how trail dies are formed. I have always found trail dies to be quite a mystery. Perhaps that's why I never seem to be able to find them? Anyway, thanks for the new info!

[jallengomez]

She actually spat that answer out immediately upon my first question. LOL

[twoyankees]

She actually spat that answer out immediately upon my first question. LOL

Thats one awesome Shrink. How much did she charge for that little tid-bit? Tom

[Justafarmer]

I've been unable to get the cause of these out of my mind, and I think the mint probably has no clue. Ergo, I asked a physicist and this is what she said-

"They are likely caused by metal fatigue and stresses of the metal's surface area caused by stretching of the metals surface due to rapid and strong forces being exerted which are not perpendicular to its surface, causing an uneven pulling as the die stamps its surface. This is caused often by several factors, including imperfections in the dies, misalignment of the dies and/or surface area of the material being stamped..."

I believe the "not perpendicular to its surface" is the key. Leave it up the a physicist to kick the mint's *ss with an explanation. Ha ha.

So is she saying that trail dies are a unique form of die wear attributable to its use in the coin striking process as opposed to an anomaly attributable to the manufacture of the die itself?

[mustbebob]

I disagree with her analysis big time. Trails are not formed during the striking process. If they were, then each one would be different. Trails are formed during the hubbing process, so almost none of her assertions are accurate. It sounds good, but is not accurate.

[Maineman750]

Agree with Bob..but wonder if she is familiar with the die making process..there seems to be some substance to her theory, but not necessarily in her knowledge of the entire operation.

[jfines69]

Very interesting theory but I go with Bob on this one... I wonder what she would be able to come up with if she could study the processes that create the dies and coins... Could be some really good insight!!!

[cimperialis]

I disagree with her analysis big time. Trails are not formed during the striking process. If they were, then each one would be different. Trails are formed during the hubbing process, so almost none of her assertions are accurate. It sounds good, but is not accurate.

I read the analysis as referring to the hub making process, not the actually striking process. Although, I don't see where it specifies either way.

[papascoins]

Bob is correct. I don't think she understands the die-making process, nor the coin-making process. It could be, though, that she also doesn't know enough about the trails coming from the same die would be the same.

[thecentcollector]

Bob is correct. I don't think she understands the die-making process, nor the coin-making process. It could be, though, that she also doesn't know enough about the trails coming from the same die would be the same.

If it takes a physicist to figure out that trails come from the same die, then I'm in the wrong profession.

[trails]

Trails have been around for a long time; at least from 1869 (see the Uruguay one centavo from that year listed on traildies.com).

I have asked just about all the experts what their opinion is on the cause for this anomaly and except for a few, I have not had an answer from them. Some people are skeptical and have pushed trails aside as being "too minor" to fool with or just ignore that they exist.

The U. S. Mint does realize that they are there, but seem to have choose to live with them as a nuisance of sorts for they do not appear on the majority of working dies (working hubs). When questioned concerning the cause, the mint did admit that there was horizontal movement during the hubbing between the hub and the die.

Even now, though I have been working on this anomaly type for 10 years, I still do not have all the answers that I wish I had. And probably never will. Suffice to say, is that this anomaly (trails) seems to be still present on 2012 denominational coins and that makes it a collectible variety.

BJ Neff

PS - my absence from this forum is due to the amount of work that is being put into a new site. Hopefully, you will be able to start using this new site by mid-summer.

[Antiquity]

PS - my absence from this forum is due to the amount of work that is being put into a new site. Hopefully, you will be able to start using this new site by mid-summer.

New face for traildies.com?

[liveandievarieties]

This thread couldn't have come at a better time- I spent last week at a local show and spoke at length with a gentleman who has spent 40 years operating die press rooms for private minting firms (from whom I got the token errors and feeder finger errors).

His contention was that die trails (he's checked out the Trails site, I had the same discussion with him last hear)- he held that die trails were a result of overpolishing, said that depending on the equipment used, they were easily produced through overzealous polishing. Even told me he fired a guy for putting trails on all of their working dies (he said they were a pain in the butt to remove).

I'm in no way representing myself as an expert on the subject, but I'd really like to see BJ chat with him. The gentleman's name is Sean Moffatt, he used to own Moffatt & Co Minting. He's currently employed by Sunshine Minting (silver bullion).

I've got his phone number- if you will BJ, I'd really like to see you be able to pick Sean's brain- he's passionate about what he does, as are we. (He sets up an educational exhibit on errors at each show)

There wasn't any hesitation in Sean's opinion, and he's not one to BS. He HAS worked for the US mint and has greater insight into the minting process than anyone I've ever met.

BJ- Please PM me and I'd like to see the two of you get together over the phone.

[Chugly]

I read the analysis as referring to the hub making process, not the actually striking process. Although, I don't see where it specifies either way.

Yes, that was what I was thinking as well. That this was occurring during the hub making process.