How many coins are struck with a single die?

[seal006]

I am wanting answers from people that have real answers, not guesses. About how many coins can a single die produce? If a variety occurs on the die prior to the die striking planchets, and all planchets struck by that die will carry that variety, is it safe to say the quantity of any particular variety would be the life expectancy of that particular die? If the answer to previous question is yes, how can we as variety hunters convince the world that the coins we possess are rarer than these so called key dates in the Lincoln series? How can we spread the word effectively in our own communities? I am looking for concrete ways of presenting these thoughts. I am in the south central part of the country, which always seems to be last to catch on to EVERYTHING. I want to present ideas and information at local coin clubs. I want to lead the crusade in popularizing this facet of the hobby I hold so dear. Can anyone help?

[lonegunlawyer]

I believe approximately 800,000 to 1,000,000.

[seal006]

I think your numbers are way off

[lonegunlawyer]

They do not seem right to me either, but I really thought I read that in a book in the last week. I am trying to find it again. Will post when I do.

Okay, for proofs it is 3,000 coins per die. See A Guide Book of Lincoln Cents, pg. 82 (2008).

In 1909, a die produced approximately 150,000 coins. Id. at pg. 121. I assume this is for circulation strikes.

[Coppertop]

Good discussion Sean, just wanted to add somethings from my perspectives and experiences....

well maybe in response to some of your post :S

http://www.visualeconomics.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/ve-currency-circulation.png

According to this chart, look at all of the circulation cents. That number is hard to grasp, it really is.
Taking a step back , even dumbing it down on a much larger scale, say 1/3ish of that huge number which could be argued and speculated to be copper.

Even at the current rate and percentage of which copper is being "mined" from all of this, it would probably take 10 years or so to get it all out of circulation. Having said that, most of it is being mined at a rate on average of 1/3. So every 3 boxes you have you'd probably get 1 full box of Cu. Now, think about finding a rare variety, even saying that approx mintage is dead on accurate and we assume that there was 1mil strikes per die or what ever that is speculative , throw in things like die states, damages to the dies, or early changing of that die and all the other variables and factors even after the coinage is circulating

* the condition of said coins
*knowledge and experiences of the person inspecting them; i.e. would you still be able to identify it if you had it in your hands?
*melting for precious metals
*being lost or stored in vaults, jugs, yada yada forever

we could start to see the rarity factors, but most importantly I guess my point is , that number or circulating coinage is ridiculous

Even the comparison of quarters to $1 coinage is laughable, do you ever receive dollar coins in change? Meaning approx the same number of circulating quarters out there , the equivalent of $1 coins is sitting in storage somewhere

(well ok 2/3ish of that is presidential/Sacagewea acording to the chart)

now take that number in relation to the number of circulating cents and try to find your variety, That chart looks so intimidating if I was a coin dealer selling varieties I'd just point to the huge stack of cents and wish my customers the best finding a prime specimen out of that whole bunch. On a side note I really don't see how the rarity factors change so much according to these vast numbers in consideration, the value of certain varieties appears to just come down to demand and the number discovered.

hope the information that I've stumbled upon in my travels helps you on your crusade

[seal006]

Mark, you have WAY too much time on your hands, or you are just a Google geek, like me. It is staggering with all the figures you point out, but that really does affirm what I am trying to get across in layman's terms for the coin clubs in the area. I mean there could very well be around the same amount of 1909-S VDB cents as there are of say 1972 DDO #1. So why is the 1972 worth so much less than the VDB? I really do not want to dumb down the points I want to make too much, but at the same time I want people to start to understand that they have been missing out on the "true" rarities all this time. I guess you could say I am trying to be a Crusader for varieties.

[Coppertop]

You have a good valid point, and you're probably right on the to much time thing ( cause I'm always in front of my puter picking or searching :p but I don't really think some varieties are rarer than the others,Even looking at that 1971 in the Trade section, I was thinking what makes that so different than some other variety of the same stature? More so they are probably just more in demand or people want something to fill that slot in their collection or that registry set, :/

[Scott99]

I think it'd all be about demand. For instance: There are more 1999 WAM's than there are a single doubled column memorial ddr which would in fact make any doubled column more 'rare' than the 99 wam (Or any single-die variety).

[mustbebob]

Most numbers come from end of year mint reports that show how many coins were minted for a particular variety, and how many dies were used. It's pretty easy math to figure out an average. You can't use old data today as the striking machinery has changed from what it was decades ago. Presently, the averages show between 750,000 to 900,000 coins per die. So...a 1909S VDB had a mintage of 484,000, and almost 3 billion 1972Ps were minted. I don't have the mint report, but we can assume that one die in 1972 made as many coins as the entire 1909S VDB did (I believe there were 4 dies used).
Ultimately, the Internet has allowed more parts of the USA to get all this type of info. Most folks don't care about this info. It is the very small group of numismatists that use it, and even then, pretty sparingly.

[Maineman750]

is it safe to say the quantity of any particular variety would be the life expectancy of that particular die?

I'd have to say no....there is just no good way to determine exactly when a die was noticed as being defective and how many of the coins were pulled before being released.

[Roller]

It is my understanding that the 1909 VDB dies were retired early because of the outcry that the initials were too prominent and that the '72 obverse (die #4) probably broke down early (as evidenced by the rim cuds on existing specimens). If this is correct, neither of these die pairs had a full run.

[riff]

what happens when say a sever DDO is found before they leave the mint? for instance say a die this year is doubled and 200,000 lincolns are minted before QC notices the batch of doubled coins, do they "stop the presses", and destroy the coins, or do they send them out into circulation and simply change the die?

[Justafarmer]

Generally speaking a coin struck by a specific working die which exhibits the features of a variety is no more rare than a coin struck by a specific working die exhibiting normal features.

[lonegunlawyer]

In answering the second question, probably not (for reasons already listed and more).

With that being said, the dies go out in quantities of 25-100. Therefore, if the answer was "yes" for example, approximately 75,000 - 300,000 1990 no S proof cents would have been minted, and I would think, statistically speaking, that more would have come forward for grading, thus increasing populations, thus decreasing prices.

I think in answering your final query, only education of the facts and probabilities will enlighten others. However, enlightenment falls victim many times to powerful marketing. Diamonds are a perfect example. Diamonds are not as rare as many other precious stones, but they cost more per carat. This is because DeBoers has a near monopoly, if not on production, at least on marketing and distribution. So, you get the girls to believe a diamond (the bigger the better) is what they must have and that a man should spend at least 2 months salary on it. Great formula.

I think it occurs to a similar extent in numismatics. Let us forge ahead knowing better, and some day, the truth will win out.

[flyhi3]

for example, approximately 75,000 - 300,000 1990 no S proof cents would have been minted

Not to seem rude, but the average die life for a Lincoln Cent proof die is 3,000, so that would be about how many 1990 No S cents were minted.....