seal006
09-20-2012, 05:41 PM
I would like to take the time to personally thank four members who responded to my thread which was locked due to my frustrations stemming from the hijacking of said thread.
I think it'd all be about demand. For instance: There are more 1999 WAM's than there are a single doubled column memorial ddr which would in fact make any doubled column more 'rare' than the 99 wam (Or any single-die variety).
I agree with the demand part of this comment, but You are comparing one variety with another. I am looking more for a comparison of a valuable variety to a regular issue key date. Like for instance there were more 1931-S than there are of a 1995 DDO#1. I am not trying to disude the popularity contest, just merely want to point out with some facts that indeed the 1995 DDO is rarer than a 31-S.
Most numbers come from end of year mint reports that show how many coins were minted for a particular variety, and how many dies were used. It's pretty easy math to figure out an average. You can't use old data today as the striking machinery has changed from what it was decades ago. Presently, the averages show between 750,000 to 900,000 coins per die. So...a 1909S VDB had a mintage of 484,000, and almost 3 billion 1972Ps were minted. I don't have the mint report, but we can assume that one die in 1972 made as many coins as the entire 1909S VDB did (I believe there were 4 dies used).
Ultimately, the Internet has allowed more parts of the USA to get all this type of info. Most folks don't care about this info. It is the very small group of numismatists that use it, and even then, pretty sparingly.
This is the most informative response in the entire thread. I must confess that I missed it, blinded by frustration. For this I am sorry. It is this kind of figures I was seeking. I realize that modern day varieties are not nearly as rare as a 1909-S VDB, but they are rarer than coins like the 31-S I eluded to above. I really do not want to bore or bombard them with figures or pie charts. Just a few statements to back up a claim of the existence of "modern day rarities."
I'd have to say no....there is just no good way to determine exactly when a die was noticed as being defective and how many of the coins were pulled before being released.
TRUE TRUE TRUE, but I think it also reaffirms the fact that these varieties are rare.
It is my understanding that the 1909 VDB dies were retired early because of the outcry that the initials were too prominent and that the '72 obverse (die #4) probably broke down early (as evidenced by the rim cuds on existing specimens). If this is correct, neither of these die pairs had a full run.
Very intelligent response, but would the existence of cuds on the 72 indicate a well used die? Maybe it was defective. I am leaning towards well used. Which would also lead me to believe there are many more of this one yet to surface.
These are responses worthy of re-posting. Each one of these guys has a good knowledge of varieties and or the minting process. I am finding it difficult to try and simplify a complex subject. I plan on showing some examples of dramatic RPMs, easily seen doubled dies, as well as a 1999 WAM, and a 1988 RDV-006. My ultimate goal is that there will be a handful of folks that really catch the bug after my presentation. I would like to start a variety sub group within the coin club. That way I can have face to face conversations with others who are fascinated with the same things I am.
Thanks guys. If you have any other insight PLEASE PM me.
I think it'd all be about demand. For instance: There are more 1999 WAM's than there are a single doubled column memorial ddr which would in fact make any doubled column more 'rare' than the 99 wam (Or any single-die variety).
I agree with the demand part of this comment, but You are comparing one variety with another. I am looking more for a comparison of a valuable variety to a regular issue key date. Like for instance there were more 1931-S than there are of a 1995 DDO#1. I am not trying to disude the popularity contest, just merely want to point out with some facts that indeed the 1995 DDO is rarer than a 31-S.
Most numbers come from end of year mint reports that show how many coins were minted for a particular variety, and how many dies were used. It's pretty easy math to figure out an average. You can't use old data today as the striking machinery has changed from what it was decades ago. Presently, the averages show between 750,000 to 900,000 coins per die. So...a 1909S VDB had a mintage of 484,000, and almost 3 billion 1972Ps were minted. I don't have the mint report, but we can assume that one die in 1972 made as many coins as the entire 1909S VDB did (I believe there were 4 dies used).
Ultimately, the Internet has allowed more parts of the USA to get all this type of info. Most folks don't care about this info. It is the very small group of numismatists that use it, and even then, pretty sparingly.
This is the most informative response in the entire thread. I must confess that I missed it, blinded by frustration. For this I am sorry. It is this kind of figures I was seeking. I realize that modern day varieties are not nearly as rare as a 1909-S VDB, but they are rarer than coins like the 31-S I eluded to above. I really do not want to bore or bombard them with figures or pie charts. Just a few statements to back up a claim of the existence of "modern day rarities."
I'd have to say no....there is just no good way to determine exactly when a die was noticed as being defective and how many of the coins were pulled before being released.
TRUE TRUE TRUE, but I think it also reaffirms the fact that these varieties are rare.
It is my understanding that the 1909 VDB dies were retired early because of the outcry that the initials were too prominent and that the '72 obverse (die #4) probably broke down early (as evidenced by the rim cuds on existing specimens). If this is correct, neither of these die pairs had a full run.
Very intelligent response, but would the existence of cuds on the 72 indicate a well used die? Maybe it was defective. I am leaning towards well used. Which would also lead me to believe there are many more of this one yet to surface.
These are responses worthy of re-posting. Each one of these guys has a good knowledge of varieties and or the minting process. I am finding it difficult to try and simplify a complex subject. I plan on showing some examples of dramatic RPMs, easily seen doubled dies, as well as a 1999 WAM, and a 1988 RDV-006. My ultimate goal is that there will be a handful of folks that really catch the bug after my presentation. I would like to start a variety sub group within the coin club. That way I can have face to face conversations with others who are fascinated with the same things I am.
Thanks guys. If you have any other insight PLEASE PM me.