View Full Version : need help attributing.
bella
10-13-2012, 11:26 PM
Looked on cc . The mm is realy close to the 5. The 010 looks realy close with the two split serifs, but mm looks more to the west. Also thought about maybe 004, looks like mm is in different location also? Didn't see any of the markers.
jpl6332
10-14-2012, 07:34 AM
Can you please check and see if there are numerous die scratches under and above Lincolns chin and is there a die crack in Lincolns hair moving from NE to SW?
seal006
10-14-2012, 07:58 AM
IMHO You have an RPM not listed on CC. Nice find
bella
10-14-2012, 09:33 AM
Didn't see the scratches under chin and looked for the die crack in hair line didn't see that either.
jpl6332
10-14-2012, 11:02 AM
Don't pay much attention to my ramblings as mye sight sucks but there are not a lot of RPM's listed for this date, but I am thinking it looks a lot like 1950D-1MM-002 but if it is then its an early die state or more probably Sean is right, I would wait and see what Bob or Jason have to say. Yes thats wjhat I would do.
seal006
10-14-2012, 11:18 AM
This is a tilted RPM, the 002 is to the north and shows two anomalies separated and above the primary. The OP coin does not. As I have stated about RPMs before, just like retail, Location, Location, Location. I cannot find a match for the location of the MM.
jcuve
10-14-2012, 11:45 AM
This is a minor tilted RPM. Not on CC (and not listed, nor will it be listed by CONECA). Pictures are clear and it is a nice find. I would send Bob a PM to see if he would list it.
mustbebob
10-14-2012, 12:48 PM
I tried to narrow it down and was unable to also. This one would need to be examined in hand, and I think it is definitely listable for the coppercoins files.
seal006
10-14-2012, 01:05 PM
This is a minor tilted RPM. Not on CC (and not listed, nor will it be listed by CONECA). Pictures are clear and it is a nice find. I would send Bob a PM to see if he would list it.
Why is this?
jcuve
10-14-2012, 02:19 PM
Wile is not listing minor, or even decent new tilted RPMs. I have seen ones much stronger than this not get listed.
seal006
10-14-2012, 02:29 PM
Wile is not listing minor, or even decent new tilted RPMs. I have seen ones much stronger than this not get listed.
That gives me the info I need. Thank you. This is all the more reason NOT to join CONECA. No photos, not listing new varieties. All from an organization that is supposed to be the leader behind this area of the hobby. One can get so much more from Copper Coins without spending a dime, and not have to deal with all the politics.
bella
10-14-2012, 02:53 PM
Thx everyone will send in to someone on CC for attributing.
jcuve
10-14-2012, 03:07 PM
I seem to have started something I did not intend. Wiles is free to attribute what he chooses. To his defense, there are just so many tilted RPMs that cataloging them all would be monumental. Every attributer has to draw a line somewhere. The Wexler files seem to list everything, Wiles is more selective and CC seemed to be in between.
seal006
10-14-2012, 03:45 PM
I seem to have started something I did not intend. Wiles is free to attribute what he chooses. To his defense, there are just so many tilted RPMs that cataloging them all would be monumental. Every attributer has to draw a line somewhere. The Wexler files seem to list everything, Wiles is more selective and CC seemed to be in between.
Jason, you only reaffirmed what myself and others on this forum have believed. CONECA is an organization which receives funds from it's memberships. Copper Coins and Wexler's site are free. Would it not make sense for what is considered to be the leading organization devoted to errors and varieties to be more than what it seems to be? I respect Wiles, and CONECA, in general. I just always felt they have fallen WAY SHORT of what they should. With the membership they have had and currently do have, CONECA has no excuse for not being more informative than these free info type site. This is just an observation. I just always wondered why you would have all of these variety listings without photos to show what they are. CC has done it for years, and better than everyone else.
mustbebob
10-14-2012, 04:27 PM
Something else folks need to consider is that coppercoins ONLY deals with cents. CONECA deals with all denominations. Whether you like him or not, Dr Wiles attributes a whole lot more than I do by virtue of that very fact.
Our goal at coppercoins was to be the best at Lincoln cents, and I think we are. To be fair, you can't compare the two on anything except Lincoln Cents.
Maineman750
10-14-2012, 04:29 PM
That's true Bob, but by doing it the right way, Coppercoins has earned the respect it deserves. You just can't be an expert at "everything".
seal006
10-14-2012, 04:34 PM
Something else folks need to consider is that coppercoins ONLY deals with cents. CONECA deals with all denominations. Whether you like him or not, Dr Wiles attributes a whole lot more than I do by virtue of that very fact.
Our goal at coppercoins was to be the best at Lincoln cents, and I think we are. To be fair, you can't compare the two on anything except Lincoln Cents.
Bob, I can agree with that to a point. CONECA needs photos. It needs more forward thinking. The two are very similar, but one has embraced the technology available to keep them on top now in the 21st century. While the other just kinda hangs there as a text reference without any illustration.
mustbebob
10-14-2012, 04:38 PM
I am definitely not disputing anything said here. I agree with most of it. All I wanted was to let folks look at it from another perspective. I know coppercoins is that best at what we do, and as long as folks use the info provided, and continue to send in nes stuff, I couldn't be happier.
seal006
10-14-2012, 04:44 PM
Bob, you are the best. We are lucky to have you. Now when was I supposed to send you my 10 rolls of 1960-D RPMs?
jcuve
10-14-2012, 06:37 PM
I'm not directing this at anyone in particular, but the notion that things should be free has complicated everything in the past 15 years or so. By all rights, Coppercoins.com and LCR should really be charging a fee, something nominal. While maybe right now they could get away with it, if either started with a fee amongst the sea of free things on the internet, how many would have joined? I'm by no means advocating for fees at LCR or CC, nevertheless someone has to bear the burden of the server costs. Additionally, the sites need at least a few dedicated individuals, who free of charge, keep them afloat.
Wexler has some free content, it would seem more than what Wiles has up, but both file systems are no where near complete in terms of having everything digitally recorded.
An organization like CONECA is older, and like LCR or CC it was designed to educate people about errors and varieties, however on all denominations. There is monthly publication as well activities tied into sharing the knowledge of error and variety collecting. Such things need funds for creation. While it would be nice to have an extensive database related to all the files, such an endeavor is amazingly complex. There are decades of old files that have to be updated (as pics are out of date, analog and sometimes black and white), cleaned up and organized. It takes time to do that and manpower. But even if CONECA had an online database, how can it maintain what it does as non-profit organization by providing free content? It cannot function solely on occasional contributions. The database would have to be fee based and tied into membership somehow. CONECA has a presence at shows, awards, a publication and a huge variety file system. It, like LCR needs members - both to join and to also get involved and assist to make it better.
seal006
10-14-2012, 07:05 PM
Jason, you are missing my point. I believe your comments are directed at me. The problem is I too believe the database should be fee driven. I would pay it. But for what they offer now with their membership fee, it simply is not worth it, that is what my point is. How can you possibly have a database system with no illustration as to what the variety associated with that attribution number. This is a very visual hobby. There are not many photos on the CONECA website. I have sent emails volunteering web space and web design services. Every email has gone unanswered. If Copper Coins started charging a fee, I would be one of the first in line to pay it.
jcuve
10-14-2012, 07:48 PM
It's not at you Sean. It's a bigger issue, and as I am on the Board of CONECA, one I am trying to reckon with. Right now Wiles is the only one who can photograph the varieties and properly attribute. It will be on him alone. He did create the Lincoln RPM update and Lincoln '09-'58 doubled die books on DVD. Those are huge improvements versus just listing numbers. He currently also has a Jefferson RPM book available for free in PDF. He does have images up of recent additions, it just isn't as much as Wexler has up.
seal006
10-15-2012, 01:12 PM
It's not at you Sean. It's a bigger issue, and as I am on the Board of CONECA, one I am trying to reckon with. Right now Wiles is the only one who can photograph the varieties and properly attribute. It will be on him alone. He did create the Lincoln RPM update and Lincoln '09-'58 doubled die books on DVD. Those are huge improvements versus just listing numbers. He currently also has a Jefferson RPM book available for free in PDF. He does have images up of recent additions, it just isn't as much as Wexler has up.
So why doesn't someone with photography skills like yourself not help bring the CONECA website and reference section to life? Why is Wiles the only one who can do all of this? I love the concept behind CONECA. I just feel it is missing the mark.
Peter
10-15-2012, 02:10 PM
Hate to chime in like this, but would this line of discussion be better served for the entire Forum in it's own thread? This is obviously an important issue to a lot of members and has solicited a lot of conversation. While still on the topic of variety attributions it has strayed from the 1950 rpm that started this thread.
Here are my thoughts:
1) The LCR would never have started without all the work of Lincoln Cent attributers like James Wiles, Wexler and Crawford. They have done all the hard work. What I have done is nothing compared the them.
2) Coppercoins is awesome and Bob is especially awesome.
3) James Wiles is the attributer I tend to use the most. I like the fact that he does not list every minor die.
4) CONECA would be better with pictures, but if you need pictures use Coppercoins.
5) Jason is tied with Bob for awesomeness.
6) I only join organizations that I feel are worth joining. If you are going to join only one organization I would recommend the ANA, but the choice is yours.
7) Peter, I think there is a way to "Split" a thread, but I don't remember how.
seal006
10-15-2012, 04:50 PM
Thanks Brad. I have looked at ANA as well. I have been leaning it's direction. I still love what CONECA is founded on. I am just a bit selfish. I want as many good sources of info I can find.
jpl6332
10-15-2012, 05:16 PM
I have been a member of Coneca for a long time and while I have no opinion on the present subject I would say this: Coneca also sends out a really nice printed Journal/magazine with your membership and that costs lots of money to produce and to print.
mustbebob
10-15-2012, 05:20 PM
Well thank you for the 'Awesome' comments Brad. That was pretty awesome! You know, this very discussion has made it's way around for many many years. I like Dr Wiles, John Wexler, Ken Potter, Billy Crawford, and Chuck Daughtrey. We all basically do the same thing, and I have learned everything I know about attributing from those folks. Some think it's a competition between the clubs, others think it is just a way for everything error and variety related to be sent out there
The real simple answer for all of this is to use the process that best suits your needs. Whether it is coppercoins, CONECA, Wexler, or combinations of all of them, that should be the only answer. I also see it as if you have issues with coppercoins, you should bring them up to me directly. If you have issues with CONECA, they should be brought up to CONECA, etc. The LCR (Which is awesome by the way), is a great meeting place to discuss this stuff, but ultimately you need to address your issues with the appropriate club.
seal006
10-15-2012, 05:25 PM
In a word, Bob, AWESOME.
I read either Numismatic News or the magazine the ANA issues to members (The Numismatist) every morning when I eat breakfast. I like Numismatic News better, but the ANA magazine is worth the membership fee.
Being a teacher, I allow myself 5 minutes for breakfast, so I can leave at 6:00 AM. It is good preparation for my 15 lunch. I check eBay during lunch.
seal006
10-15-2012, 05:42 PM
I read either Numismatic News or the magazine the ANA issues to members (The Numismatist) every morning when I eat breakfast. I like Numismatic News better, but the ANA magazine is worth the membership fee.
Being a teacher, I allow myself 5 minutes for breakfast, so I can leave at 6:00 AM. It is good preparation for my 15 lunch. I check eBay during lunch.
Wow Brad, you get 5 more minutes for lunch as a teacher than I do as a correctional officer, and the jobs are VERY SIMILAR.