1909S and VDB enders? Your Thoughts?

[keelonzo]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/OLD-ROLL-LINCOLN-WHEAT-CENT-PENNY-1909-S-VDB-END-COINS-LOS-ANGELES-BRANCH-/160904286967?pt=Coins_US_Individual&hash=item2576a492f7

I usually buy OBW rolls from eBay and have had pretty decent luck - not necessarily key dates, but nice TRULY unsearched early memorial coppers that were socked away when they were minted. Anyways... stumbled on this listing while searching the terms OBW and wheat.

Interested in hearing your opinions/reactions to this one.

[willbrooks]

I think whoever wins this auction is going to be very very sad.

[jcuve]

I would worry that someone created that roll. They probably placed a 1909-S on one end, and presumably a 1909 VDB on the other. They factored in the costs and are taking a gamble that two or more bidders will take it beyond the value of the two shown coins along with what is likely to be a bunch of garbage in the middle.

One has to ask how a Federal Reserve roll happened to have a well worn 1909-S and what might be a AU/ low MS 1909 together? It took some number of years for the S shown to get worn like that, so it cannot be from around the 1909. It would be another thing if there was an uncirculated 1909-S on one end...

[keelonzo]

Well... I think after their wife sees the credit card bill to paypal! LOL

The only way I can figure out how they've "wrapped" a roll that tight with a "vintage wrapper" would be a Klopp coin roll crimper that has the ability to crimp flat wraps as well as tubes.

[keelonzo]

It would be another thing if there was an uncirculated 1909-S on one end...


... I was just thinking that as well! ... if it truly is an OBW roll of early wheats it would be worth it PLUS you would see at least semi-key dates being found in his feedback from just the tails/tails auctions.

[jcuve]

I am not an expert on wrappers. We have a few members who could probably speak about that wrapper in the auction. I would worry someone bought old wrappers, but I cannot say that is even possible or not. I also am not knowledgeable about what an old Federal reserve roll would or would not contain from earlier eras. I don't like a circulated mixed in like that. eBay is full of generated rolls that are peppered with occasional good finds and end coins to arouse interest.

EDIT: going through their auctions, they are all almost good to be true. What I want to know is what people are finding in the middle of the rolls if the ends have BU VDBs...

[trails]

This has SCAM written all over it. I have seen many rolls like this on E-bay where one or both ends have good coins and the rest are JUNK.

If you are interested in buying a 1909-S, then buy one encapsulated and you will be better off.

BJ Neff

[jcuve]

I have been reading the feedback. The rolls with a wheat reverses shown seem to be BU late '50s Lincolns. A few minor complaints that say more when read together. No reports of a 1909-S VDB (surprised?), which is clearly on the minds of the buyers as you read what people say...

[Peter]

The Klopp machines do wonders for this kind of roll and the seller will almost make his money back on it from this one sale. Looking at a members feedback and purchase history is key.

[jcuve]

The Klopp machines do wonders for this kind of roll and the seller will almost make his money back on it from this one sale. Looking at a members feedback and purchase history is key.

Thanks Peter.

You can still get a sense a sellers purchase history even if they have not purchased since January by looking at the feedback they received as a "buyer" - then look at the sellers who left feedback for them and see what they sell.

Also check the users ID history, as that I think it can be telling as well.

[simonm]

As my grandfather says: sucker born every minute!

[Amadauss]

Just curious and trying to better understand the comments, but all posts for the most part seem concerned about this sale and looking fake. I checked out the comments by buyers of these very rolls and all seem to be very happy. Am I missing something here?

[simonm]

Just curious and trying to better understand the comments, but all posts for the most part seem concerned about this sale and looking fake. I checked out the comments by buyers of these very rolls and all seem to be very happy. Am I missing something here?

Buyers such as these tend to "seed" rolls with good looking coins, and people expect that they are going to find a bunch of goodies in the roll besides what are on the ends. I guess people leave good feedback because they got what they bid on...2 nice end roll coins. The rest is usually crap, and people probably leave feedback based on the good coins rather than the bad.

[keelonzo]

The rest is usually crap, and people probably leave feedback based on the good coins rather than the bad.

You can usually tell when there is a detailed feedback rating. eBay'ers fear retaliation for "negative" feedback, so they will just put one word/or short details such as "Nice" or "Item as described" while leaving positive metrics. Looking at the feedback there is a 50/50 of that being done in this instance.

[Antiquity]

Sellers cant leave negative feedback anymore, so there is no fear of reprisal, more than likely the reason most of the responses are positive is because the only people who buy these are newbies to the hobby.

[jcuve]

No one left a neg or a neutral, but there are complaints within the last 200 feedbacks left if you choose to look. You have to figure that many buyers are probably ok with getting a BU roll of 1957-59 cents, so the $45 they paid is not that bad. Mind you they are still overpaying as late '50s rolls are not that expensive, but ignorance is central here. The buyers as a whole are largely ignorant (not stupid, they just do not yet know better).

[keelonzo]

These particular auctions amaze me with the prices realized. Per jcuve - you definitely can find these specimens much cheaper elsewhere and know what you are getting.

The reason these auctions gain so much attention is because in essence it is gambling. Albeit, "ignorant/uninformed" type. These individuals are looking to "win big" - like scratch off tickets... I've got the 1909S, and the VDB.... Just need the 1909S to BE a VDB..... sell a $20 scratch off with 2 $1000 prizes revealed.... only need one more, but what are the odds? Actually alot better considering the lottery commission doesn't know exactly whats on THAT ticket - it's a sweepstakes/random.

Regardless of any moral debate - this person is cashing in BIG on the folks that didn't "read the book" before buying the coin!

[simonm]

. sell a $20 scratch off with 2 $1000 prizes revealed.... only need one more, but what are the odds?


I like this analogy. Makes the point clearly.

[Maineman750]

I'm really surprised that anubody bids on these...I really thought it was the oldest scam on eBay:tinysmile_hmm_t:

[liveandievarieties]

I'm amazed that anyone's debating the merits of these types of rolls.

There is NO SUCH THING as an OBW from the turn of the century, or even the teens anymore. They don't exist.

If we're having a nearly impossible time finding completely unsearched accumulations of change from the 50s, do you really think there's a plethora of bank wapped rolls 30 years older?

I guess as long as there's pyramid schemes, there'll be people thinking they have a "small chance" at making out. If you think you've got a chance, I've got a bridge you should buy. Just think people, really.

You'd probably have a better chance buying searched rolls from me hoping that I overlooked a '55 doubled die.

[keelonzo]

I'm really surprised that anubody bids on these...I really thought it was the oldest scam on eBay

The difference between this and those other "scams" is the clever subterfuge surrounding the idea of Original Bank Wrapped. There are TONS of these auctions all over eBay and they are extremely obvious to even the least seasoned newbie; however they almost NEVER are so bold to include "OBW" in their auctions.


I'm amazed that anyone's debating the merits of these types of rolls

The run of the mill "Unsearched Wheat Roll with Indian Ends" has hints to these being mysterious while obtaining reasonable prices. I've purchased these types of rolls from eBay and flea markets - some are better than others... some I overpaid, others I was right on. I've even sold some myself (although I didn't use the term "unsearched") It's a fun novelty, like a grab bag or little wooden treasure chest full of coins.

This one is different than those, at least to the casual observer, AND it achieves VERY high bids! Consistently!

My final verdict is that this "type" of roll auction is the new breed - like I mentioned before and was confirmed - They have a Klopp or similar device used to professionally crimp vintage wrappers that are seeded with BU ends, but the seller maintains a modicum of authenticity by not going overboard like others - this is a pro - no mistaking. I doubt they are a card carrying member of the ANA, but they don't seed crazy things like seated liberty dimes to draw the attention, they're in the grey area in my mind - Producing a believable illusion that allows people to "give permission" to themselves to purchase an "instant lotto ticket," hoping to win big.

I brought this up to solicit opinions from the pros - I thank you for your input. This is nothing more than an opportunistic individual selling the old pig-in-a-poke scam. Back when I thought it mattered, I was a sociology minor in college. These types of things capture my attention for the unique aspects of what the person is selling - also I've been in sales most of my life, and have been taught to "paint a picture" for my clients, or wordsmith the most exciting benefit conjured from the most mundane feature of a product - this seller is using the former - painting a picture and letting the marketplace decide - and they have decided to Buy!

Very fascinating.

[coinbot]

Cool writeup, keelonzo!

[Maineman750]

I think Hannum summed it up nicely with "There's a sucker born every minute"

[flyhi3]

I'm amazed that anyone's debating the merits of these types of rolls.

There is NO SUCH THING as an OBW from the turn of the century, or even the teens anymore. They don't exist.

I agree with this, but there was a 1909-S-VDB OBW found in Pittsburgh Pa (I live 30 miles from there) :squigglemouth:

[Maineman750]

I agree with this, but there was a 1909-S-VDB OBW found in Pittsburgh Pa (I live 30 miles from there) :squigglemouth:


Sounds interesting Alex,care to give us a link to that story ?

[flyhi3]

Sounds interesting Alex,care to give us a link to that story ?

No link, but I took a picture of the add. it says they bought a OBW roll of 1909-S VDB cents recently discovered in Pittsburgh Pa. The company is very reputable, but the story sounds weird.....

[keelonzo]

I saw a similar story.... googeling now....

[Maineman750]

No link, but I took a picture of the add. it says they bought a OBW roll of 1909-S VDB cents recently discovered in Pittsburgh Pa. The company is very reputable, but the story sounds weird.....


Not saying it's true..but it says "surfaced", not "found". If it is real, it may have just been that a collector,dealer,or estate that sold them....probably somebody that knew what they had.Don't let your imagination run wild and spend your money foolishly.Playing the lottery is about the same as these rolls....it can happen,but odds are against you.

[keelonzo]

Anyone get "Rare Coin Monthly" newsletter put out by coast to coast coins? Says the story of the roll is in there - couldn't find an online version.

.... wait.... I think they bought it off eBay! LOL! I kid, I kid...

[Maineman750]

The biggest problem I see is that fact that they advertised having a whole roll. That doesn't seem to be a wise move when it comes getting the best prices.

[flyhi3]

Not saying it's true..but it says "surfaced", not "found". If it is real, it may have just been that a collector,dealer,or estate that sold them....probably somebody that knew what they had.
True, but either way. My point was that there was an old, possibly original roll of 1909-S VDB cents that recently came about. I didn't mean someone bought an "unsearched" ebay roll and found that.


The biggest problem I see is that fact that they advertised having a whole roll. That doesn't seem to be a wise move when it comes getting the best prices.
I thought this exact same thing when I saw the add...... not to smart of marketing, if you ask me.

[BadThad]

Classic ebay seeded roll scam....move on now.

Some fool just wasted $357 on junk.

[keelonzo]

If it is, in fact, true that it was found. I'm curious to find out if the market will "react." Does 50 pieces effect a base of 484,000??


The biggest problem I see is that fact that they advertised having a whole roll. That doesn't seem to be a wise move when it comes getting the best prices. I'm not sure there goal is best prices. It seems they'd rather have the perceived notoriety and marketing value something like that brings. "Hey - we're the best coin dealer because we have a roll of 09S VDB's" type of thing - Also, the fact that they are selling them as "fresh" from the roll could attract attention. Like a lost leader, but heck - at an avg of 3 grand they're not losing much.

...on a side note... their marketing leaves much to be desired... too much we/us and not enough you/yours.

.... and yes BadThad.... agreed.... stick a fork in this one. :-)

[Daniel5747]

I am not an expert on wrappers. We have a few members who could probably speak about that wrapper in the auction. I would worry someone bought old wrappers, but I cannot say that is even possible or not. I also am not knowledgeable about what an old Federal reserve roll would or would not contain from earlier eras. I don't like a circulated mixed in like that. eBay is full of generated rolls that are peppered with occasional good finds and end coins to arouse interest.

EDIT: going through their auctions, they are all almost good to be true. What I want to know is what people are finding in the middle of the rolls if the ends have BU VDBs...

There are a few scammers on E-Bay that have enough patience, driven by greed, to insert relatively desirable coins into coin roll ends. Indian head cents, mercury dimes, barber dimes, etc. What they insert is a pittance to what the ending bids are. They average about 35 to 40 bucks a roll at the auctions end as opposed to 3 to 5 bucks without the salted end coins.

Daniel