Overthinking the term Doubled Die

[admrose]

Is this really the proper term to describe post single squeeze hubbing doubling? I would think pressure doubling would be a more applicable term as the doubling is caused by the die rotating due to extreme pressure instead of an incorrect second strike of the hub into the die.

It's Memorial Day and I'm at work with nothing to do and my mind wanders. Please indulge me.

[onecent1909]

to me...the die has 2 images.. so a doubled image...YES it may be from the pressure....but the design on the die is doubled...the wording does not say the die was impressed twice...just that the design is doubled....a doubled die...my opinion

[admrose]

My problem with it is that modern doubled dies are basically machine doubling in the die stage; the die moved while being struck by the hub. I just think there should be some differentiation between misaligned die doubling and pressure doubling.

[onecent1909]

My problem with it is that modern doubled dies are basically machine doubling in the die stage; the die moved while being struck by the hub. I just think there should be some differentiation between misaligned die doubling and pressure doubling.

I had not thought of the md during the hubbing...
but this is why we have the classes of die doubling....class I to VIII
the die has been doubled..the design is doubled...that we can agree on...
Wexler's info on class VIII doubling http://doubleddie.com/203990.html
the stiking of a coin concludes when the obv and rev dies come together anything after this is called MD
the die is not md because the die and hub are inside of the processes of the working of die creation and have not hit the final spot of coming together....ANYTHING after this....may be called MD to the die...but it is still inside of the production of the coin/die...I would not call that MD....they have not reached the end of the impression...

you can list it as a class VIII(8) doubled die...would that work?

[Scott99]

Any of these that are listed on coppercoins have the classification of Class 9 due to it on fitting in with any of the previous 8 classes from my understanding. My thought's are along the lines of admrose's as well but I think keeping it listed as a doubled die will make it easier to understand and declaring another class (such as class 9) to explain how the die was created is the best decision.

[seal006]

Is the die making process single squeeze? I know that the working die is single squeezed onto the planchets during the final minting process. I just thought the dies were still made by hubbing them together. Also if when transferring the design from a die to a hub, or the opposite, what if they just "kissed" each other then the die rotated slightly as they came together again for the transfer? Then take into account for the die or hub being tilted slightly, then corrected before the final transfer. It was explained to me that he dies themselves are conical in shape, which explains why most of the doubling on modern coins, is located near the center of the design.

And yes, this may be over thinking a bit. Get back to work.

[admrose]

Class VIII seems fitting enough but it almost seems to warrant at least a new class for the modern doubled dies. Something along the lines of Pressure Induced Movement or something like that.

[GrumpyEd]

I think the key is that it happened while the die is being hubbed so it's a hub doubled die.

The 9s are a different deal than the good old fashioned pre single squeezed ones. They aren't anything like a 55 or 72 DDO as far as being impressive.

There are a few single squeeze era doubled dies that are more like the old ones, one of the 2006 is pretty impressive but those are not only class 9. It's still possible that they sometimes do back off then hub again but it's not the norm.

[Maineman750]

Remind me not to hire you :LOL_Hair:

[1jackel1]

I think the best way to say it is, single squeezed pressure rotated hub doubling (ssprhd) whether it class 1 to class 8 and class nine for all others. just a thought.

George

[admrose]

Remind me not to hire you :LOL_Hair:

You can hire me just don't work me on major holidays :tinysmile_hmm_t:

[mustbebob]

Wow. I will make this short and sweet. Yes, you are way over thinking the term doubled die. There are literally thousands of pages concerning the term doubled dies.
Coppercoins has added a class 9 for single squeeze doubled dies, and the proper name is 'Shifted Hub Doubling'
Others prefer to use class 8 (Tilted Hub Doubling) to identify it. To me, the definition of class 8 does not work. Either way
Pressure is used in all classes of hubbing, so adding that word to anything is useless.
Some good discussion here, but to me, it has been addressed and discussed thousands of times over the years. If it is not broke...don't fix it.

[flyhi3]

Got to agree with Bob here...
Now get back to work! :LOL_Hair:

:angel:

[coppercoins]

Exactly what Bob said.