Need assistance. What would you do in this situation.

[hasfam]

Here is the dilemma.
Buyer purchased a 1995-1DO-002, CONECA 2-O-V back on May 5th. He sent it to ANACS for grading and he just got it back graded MS62 RB BUT, with a note saying "the coin is not the requested variety". Now the buyer has come back to me for a refund for all the money he spent on the coin and slabbing.
Even though it's well past the 14 day return period, I don't have a problem refunding him his winning bid. I don't feel I should pay for the slabbing. I believe my attribution was and still is correct. I myself have also experienced the same "note" from ANACS in the past because if it's not in their library, then it doesn't exist. I've had to resubmit coins with attribution documentation upon request. I don't think this person wants to do all that. As far as they are concerned, they have a $50 dollar slabbed penny in plastic. I'm not sure how to make this guy happy without my having to pay for the slabbing which was entirely his decision and desire. I haven't replied yet. Still pondering what to do.
Here is a link to the listing. (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=151036516560&ssPageName=ADME:X:AAQ:US:1123#ht_10353wt_1139)
Updated on separate post, pg 3 of thread.

[Antiquity]

I think ebay will side with you on paying slabbing fees. He cant make you refund more than he paid. I would call ebay and discuss the situation and possible outcomes feedback wise. They are generally pretty helpful.

[jnesbitt82]

By refunding his winning bid, you are being nice. However, what he does with a coin after purchasing it is his problem. You are in no way obligated to pay for his grading fee. What if he chose walkthrough service when grading? Would you be expected to pay the high cost of this service?

[DCW]

Super clear photos as always on your part. You are 100% correct that he slabbed it on his own account. I'd politely let him know of that fact and offer (as you've already suggested) a refund of the purchase price on eBay. (Minus the listing fees and FVF's, since he went THERE suggesting you cover his fees)
Incidentally, I'm not picking up the variety either. It's always up to the buyer, though, to understand what they are purchasing. And once the window of returns closes, you are out of luck IMO.
Good luck

[simonm]

Slabbing fees are on the buyer. If he wants a refund, I think you should only refund the winning bid and not a penny (cent) more.

[tea-party]

Im agreeing with the other members .. Slabbing fees are outside of Ebay policies!!I'd say call Ebay and explain the situation so that this guy wont be able to jerk you around or be able to give you a bad feed back!!



John

[hasfam]

Incidentally, I'm not picking up the variety either.

I haven't been wrong yet, but it's definitely a possibility. I re-looked at the listing and took a look at Coppercoins to compare and even though I don't have the coin in hand to verify the markers, the doubling does look pretty much like the CC photos which is all I have to go on right now.


I think ebay will side with you on paying slabbing fees. He cant make you refund more than he paid. I would call ebay and discuss the situation and possible outcomes feedback wise. They are generally pretty helpful.

Good advice. I'll call eBay in the morning 1st to get a feel for what could happen with this.

All in all, I do feel bad for this guy because he trusted us to sell him an accurately attributed variety and ANACS says its not. If it were me, I would be on the phone with ANACS requesting to resubmit it with attribution documentation for free.

[liveandievarieties]

Why don't you just state the obvious to the buyer: "ANACS makes mistakes too". You can relate your own experiences. Or relate our recent situation-

We sent in several submissions to ANACS. One of them was about a dozen Coppercoins Discovery coins. They're all in flips with inserts in Bob's handwriting, stating "added on ...". They're the EXACT coins pictured on CC. All goes well, except one coin- a 1946-D/D which they claimed was "Not the same Mintmark Position". That's funny. The coins went from Bob's hands, into the flips, to me (staying in the flips). I copied down the attribution numbers and NEVER removed any of the coins from their flips. But ANACS decided that the mintmark shifted somewhere between Florida, Washington State and Colorado....

ANACS DOES make mistakes. They've tightened up and are a lot better than they've been. But I'd completely expect them to miss such a minor DDO. As a buyer of said coin, one has to educate themselves and know what they're buying. If he's doubting that the coin is a doubled die, why did he ever buy it?

[GrumpyEd]

I would offer to refund the ebay price, not slabbing.
Explain that they can make mistakes and tell him if he thinks it's the variety he can ask ANACs to re-check it but what ANACs says is not something you can guarantee.

You are already being nice to take it back after 14 days.
The only thing you might consider is if you look at it and agree it's not die-2 then maybe refund the slabbing fee but that's your call.

I've gone in circles with ANACs on a few coins. If I kept working with them and sending it back with notes they did get it right but it took some effort.

[liveandievarieties]

There's a lot of truth in that. TPGs do take their guarantees seriously. Two to three times a year we send a box to PCGS, NGC and ANACS. Box is filled with slabs that were incorrectly or not at all attributed. In nearly all cases, the coins come back with the proper attribution or correction of label and no argument. When they're mistaken, all three of them take ownership of their goof.

I don't know how much the buyer will listen to you, but you may try to explain how he would go about doing this- printing out the CC page and markers and writing a letter citing the markers from the page on the coin in question. I'm almost certain they'd correctly label the coin. I don't doubt your attribution Rock, I clearly see the doubling in your photos.

[Maineman750]

I think the easiest and least stressfull way would be to refund the cost and slabbing fee.It is only another $25 and not worth the headache. Then get ANACS to slab correctly and sell it again.

[coppercoins]

ANACS uses my website for authentication of die varieties, so this WAS in their "library".

Any responsibility beyond your correctly identifying the coin in the description lies completely with the buyer. They can choose to have it slabbed, bury it in their back yard, whatever. You have no responsibility here. I am sick and tired of eBay turning their site into a complete buyer's market. If you as a seller don't meet their every unrealistic expectation, you chance being damaged by the buyer. THAT is not a fair market.

I would take the chance. The coin is what you describe it to be. End of story. Doesn't matter what ANACS says.

[Antiquity]

It sounds like you probably knew it wouldn't get slabbed from ANACS "if it's not in their library, then it doesn't exist" and should have disclosed this up front, to this and any other potential buyer.

You are extremely confused, as Chuck said Coppercoins.com is used by ANACS as a reference. Therefore it is in "their library". And anyone who would question Rock on his selling practices needs to frequent the forum more. He is one of our more respected sellers. So before you go accusing someone of shady selling practices, educate yourself on the subject.

[Antiquity]

Go back to your autographs.

[coppercoins]

I have no idea why "attacks" and "gentlemen" is plural. I was in no shape or form attacking anyone with my post. I was making a statement that was intended to clear up any misunderstanding.

I am "bent out of shape" about eBay because they take all the power out of the sellers' hands and make them second guess what would seem to be an obvious and normal response to a situation for fear of irrevokable lashing-out by buyers who expect everything for nothing, and when they don't get it, they cause grief for the sellers - who in fact aren't doing anything wrong. I have completely stopped selling on eBay for that reason along with the fact that their fees take all the profit out of selling close margin items. Might as well stand on the street corner and give the coins away.

eBay used to be my preferred method of doing business online. I now consider it the worst option, even though it is about the only option for many people.

[seal006]

Rock, the only problem I would see coming from eBay is the fact it was ANACS that claimed the variety was not what it was stated. ANACS is on the eBay approved list for TPGs. They(eBay) could state that the ANACS opinion is all that matters because they are the only party that does not stand to gain or lose by their assessment. Therefore you "should" refund the buyer's money as well as slabbing fee. I am not saying this is right, or even if this is what will happen. We all know eBay can be very unpredictable at times.

[mustbebob]

It sounds like you probably knew it wouldn't get slabbed from ANACS "if it's not in their library, then it doesn't exist" and should have disclosed this up front, to this and any other potential buyer.



Save yourself a headache and perhaps make a new life long customer buy refunding everything. The next time, disclose your procedure in the auction if a similar situation might take place.


To Antiquity - Feel better about yourself now? Have a great day, slow down and try to smile a bit more.

First of all, no more condescending remarks are required from you, or anyone else concerning this issue. This is a forum, and as such, discussions like this are common.

tnspro...On the off chance that you don't think this is another 'personal attack', I must disagree with what you said here. How do I know what a person is going to do with an item I sell them? How do you know, or how can you even say that the seller 'probably knew' it wouldn't get slabbed? Are you serious? That statement could pertain to any number of previous dealings with ANACS...not this one. Why would the buyer get that note: There is a lot of presumption going on in your replies.
My question to the buyer is 'Why would you spend the money to slab this thing in the first place?' In my mind, it is hardly that strong of a variety that would warrant it. Then again, that is the buyers prerogative, and as such is his responsibility. No seller should be liable for what a person does after he has received the item unless it was a misleading or incorrect auction. If my item gets stolen or damaged after it is received, am I, as the seller responsible for that?
If this had been a flagrant misrepresentation of the variety, I would tend to agree with the buyer, but it is not. It is a listed variety in the coppercoins files. Therefore, ANACS is wrong, and all of your statements are moot.
Your statement to 'disclose your procedure in the auction if a similar situation might take place.' is a little off the wall...don't you think? There are hundreds of things people might do with their winnings. Is it up to me to guess what that might be and caveat it?
Maybe that's the way it works in the autograph world, but you are arguing with folks who have thousands and thousands of dealings with Ebay, Varieties, Auction houses and other numismatic areas. We are not beginners here. I thank you for your input, but as you might expect in a forum, not everyone would agree with your rationale. That's cool, and it should be. We understand you are stating your views, and we are also.

[Justafarmer]

Don't worry folks - it will not be long - for an extra 1% or so fee - EBay will allow the seller to force the buyer into Feedback Arbitration before they can give anything but positive feedback.

[Roller]

I deal very little on ebay so I'm not commenting on what they may or may not do. It seems to me though that there has to be an accepted standard by which a variety as represented by the seller is to be judged. This problem and others like it cause me concern whenever I think about selling coins on the bay as a business. I would refund the bid and pay the attribution fee Rock and be done with it. In the future, I would identify CC as the source for the attribution (or whatever other site or service) and promise a refund only if it is not as stated and identified by that source.

[coppercoins]

Rock,

If it helps I can send a letter to you stating that the coin imaged in the auction is indeed an example of the die you identified the coin to be. That may help with the buyer and it may help the buyer with ANACS. Furthermore, ANACS can send the coin to me (as they have done in the past) for identification and I will tell them the same thing.

[admrose]

I'd refund him the money, but not the slabbing fees. His issue is with ANACS and not with you.

[hasfam]

Update.
First, I expected a great deal of sound advice and of course wasn't disappointed. Thank you for sharing your own experiences and expertise in this.
Chuck, thank you for the offer to stand by the attribution.
I spoke with eBay and basically, I'm not guaranteed any protection against negative or neutral FB. They would review it upon my request to see if any eBay policies were broke. Personally, I don't trust eBay as far as I can throw this forum. It's a buyers world as was stated before.
I have decided to go with my gut on this and will refund the full $46.00 upon return of the coin. If it were a $460.00 coin I would have taken another approach. In this circumstance, I'm innocent and so is the buyer. I believe in educating the buyer, but I also believe in taking care of business and not only making him happy, but see this as an opportunity to build on to my reputation, which to me is worth $46.00. It won't be a total loss as I will resell it for something down the line. Perhaps the buyer will appreciate the resolution and come back for other sales or better yet, tell others. I know some of you would completely disagree with this resolution and I have the highest respect for all of you, but like I said, I have to go with my gut on this.
Again, thank you all for coming to my aid in this.

[seal006]

Rock, I never read if you said he actually provided you with proof that he sent it in to ANACS. If so, can you be sure it is even the same coin you sent him? The reason I ask, is bait and switch tactics happen all the time on eBay for sellers as well as buyers.

[tnspro]

Good for you, Rock. You sound like a stand up seller. I, along with the other countless people that read this and do not post, will be more than likely to purchase from you than the other poster.

I am in business, a successful business and I tell my employees, the customer is always right, even if they are not. As you stated $46 will not break you and it will come back to you many times over.

I am going to go back to my autographs now.

[liveandievarieties]

You're a better man than I Rock. I firmly believe it's the BUYER's responsibility to know what they're buying, it's their obligation to be educated.

4 or 5 times a year I get someone who buys a coin, then argues that it's not what "they thought". It was what I thought when I listed it and exactly as described, so they learn something! Really, if I bought a high end computer part and said it's worthless in my toaster, well- is it the computer retailer's fault I'm a moron?

[coppercoins]

Rock,

Try this approach - email the buyer and let him know that the founder of coppercoins and the creator of the die system under which that coin is listed personally guarantees that the coin is indeed as stated and will field a direct call from ANACS regarding the authenticity of said coin. It WILL go in their proper holder if reviewed with a note to call me direct if they have any questions.

[BadThad]

This is NO DIFFERENT from a buyer buying a coin, sending it in to be slabbed and it coming back at a lower grade than what it was sold for.....all outside a normal return period. Sorry, it's TOUGH LUCK for the buyer. They should have known what they had BEFORE sending it in and, if was not what they thought it was, they should have promptly returned the coin to the seller.

Buying a coin over the web is a gamble, end of story. If you need someone to confirm what you don't know, then you probably shouldn't be buying coins sight unseen.

[thecentcollector]

I'm confused. Did the buyer send the coin in and request it to be identified as "1995-1DO-002" or "1995D-1DO-002"? If he requested the first, then I can see why ANACS turned him away. I've owned several examples of this die, and for them not to call it 1995D-1DO-002 is an epic fail on their behalf... especially with a clear-as-day PUP on the "U" in Trust.

[jhcons]

I have read a few of the posts and this is how I would handle it. That is again if it was me. If he believed I gave him wrong coin I would do what it takes to prove that it is what I said it was. Once that is established I would ask him again what would you like to do now that you got what you paid for. If he still wants money back and slabing fee. I would take the hit and do it. It would break me deal is closed no problem. That is what I would do. I Bernini buisness for 17 years as contractor and costumer is always right. Sure it cost me sometimes but I also have made alot. Once you proved you were right it will go your way 90 percent of time.

Guys don't trash me for that post. He asked how I would handle it.

Good luck. I will be able to read all the above posts when I get home. Jim

[admrose]

In this case the seller and the customer are both right; ANACS is wrong, sadly. I too am curious as to how the customer phrased the variety designation on the submission form as they will only look for that exact designation. That's the good thing about NGC, for $14 they'll research it for you which is a better bargain than ANACS or PCGS's research fees. But I digress.

If he put the wrong designation on the form shame on him. I'd ask what he put on that form before caving to refunding the slabbing fee, but I'd let him return the coin to get his purchase cost back.

[Arjohn]

Tell him you want the coin back in the exact same condition it was when he bought it.... Don't refund a dime untill you inspect it and make sure it is removed from slab and is 100% undamaged. If it has a hairline scratch -- deny his refund...

[Rollem]

Well Rock, couldn't help myself and looked backto see what buyer had said on feedback when purchased.

Here it is:
Excellent seller! Item as promised! Fast, safe shipping! cbclement ( 1443) May-08-13 22:02
1995-D Lincoln Cent DDO Die #2 Doubled Die CONECA 2-O-V 1DO-002 #771 (#151036516560) US $24.17 View Item

This ebayer has had 1443 transactions so he is no fool. He acknowledged what he had when he gave feed back.

I also checked your return and 14 days has passed. So I would not have a bad conscience about even not accepting a return.

BTY: I have a drawer full of stuff that was so called errors or varieties bought on ebay and i just ate the purchase as a learning experience. How ever you represented this coin correctly as even Chuck has stated.

Let him eat it.:bigsmile:

James