View Full Version : grade this please
Amadauss
07-19-2013, 09:12 AM
Curious what anyone would give this as a grading. This is a trick question but not in a bad way or to hold anyone accountable in any way. Obviously MS but where does it fall. Educational, also for me. Asking everyone because I think the members on this site know more then almost everyone else out there.
http://imageshack.us/a/img825/542/czov.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/825/czov.jpg/)
http://imageshack.us/a/img839/484/lzl7.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/839/lzl7.jpg/)
trails
07-19-2013, 10:26 AM
MS-64+. Just too many small contact marks.
I was thinking MS-63. The marks East of "U" on UNITED is a problem that lowers the grade. IMOHO
copperlover
07-19-2013, 10:37 AM
The reverse of this coin does reduce the grade given for the obverse because of the strike and the contact marks. The steps on the memorial usually reflect how good the strike is. The overall surface area of the reverse is littered with contact marks as BJ pointed out and would give it no more than a 64.
Lucien
I think it's a solid 64, 65 if the PCGS graders just returned from lunch.
But, ANACS will say AU58 :bigsmile:
BadThad
07-19-2013, 01:21 PM
Lots of hits in the fields. In general, memorial cents grade a point or so higher than wheats. MS-64RD but I've seen the TPG grade coins like this 65 when they have good luster.
jcuve
07-19-2013, 07:11 PM
Unless it looks a whole heck of a lot better in person, hard to argue with it being 63/64.
Amadauss
07-19-2013, 07:56 PM
The reverse of this coin does reduce the grade given for the obverse because of the strike and the contact marks. The steps on the memorial usually reflect how good the strike is. The overall surface area of the reverse is littered with contact marks as BJ pointed out and would give it no more than a 64.
Lucien
I thought also with all the marks on the reverse, a lot of them. Especially the marks east of U as coop pointed out. Also as I am sure you all saw, on the obverse it is off center a little bit. Would that effect the grading at all or a non issue? I'll wait until tomorrow morning if anyone else wants to comment then I'll let all know why I asked. Thanks everyone for responding.
mustbebob
07-20-2013, 02:40 AM
The minor misaligned die has no bearing on the grade of the coin.
coppercoins
07-20-2013, 04:41 AM
From what I can see - it's MS65RD.
Amadauss
07-20-2013, 08:25 AM
I do not want to do a dissertation here about how I have been becoming disillusioned on grading in some cases and the big three and are they particular to a certain customer that might use them a great deal. But I can only relate this to my past experiences and that money does talk. I am going to try to keep it brief but thought you might find this interesting.
The company I work for had a large customer that probably did about 4 million in business with us a year. He called the owner one day and stated his competition was using the Good Housekeeping seal on their product and he was losing a great deal of business to them. He wanted the seal and stated to us "Aren't your windows good enough to get it?" My owner asked me to look into it.
I called Good Housekeeping and they sent me a packet. After receiving it I then called again to discuss it and how we can get it. Without even looking at our product and knowing if it meets their supposedly high standards the person I spoke to proceeded to give me the costs of having the seal. If we wanted the whole U.S., it would be 845 thousand dollars per year. If we wanted just the Eastern Region where our market is, it would be 345 thousand a year. I asked about the real neat testing lab they showed on their brochure that showed a bunch of people in white coats testing things. He stated that was just a stock photo. I agreed with that because all the people looked like models.
I was kind of crushed because I was finding out the seal was just a sell out. Similar to now Angie's List which was actually owned by a woman named Angie who sold the company late last year for about 8 million. Now its the highest payer who gets the lead from a homeowner who calls.
The good thing is I had Good Housekeeping send me their price list which they did and then gave it to our customer to use when needed.
That leads me to this coin. It graded out by PCGS at MS 67. With all those marks on it, did not seem right. Sold at a recent auction for over 4 grand. You can follow the link below. The description has the best wording I have ever read about a coin. Might use it on ebay with a nice coin. My guess is the auction company or whoever owned the coin uses PCGS a lot.
http://stacksbowers.com/Auctions/AuctionLot.aspx?LotID=71341
hasfam
07-20-2013, 08:51 AM
Interesting thread- and even more interesting finish to it.
coppercoins
07-20-2013, 08:54 AM
The part I don't like is that people put all their trust and clout in PCGS and their grading is among some of the most inconsistent in the field (for Lincoln cents anyway). I have nicer looking coins in 65 holders. In fact, was trying once to get a 66 on a 1965 cent, and couldn't with two tries - and frankly the coin is in much nicer shape than the one you show in this thread.
Basically what it breaks down to is that if you submit more coins more often, you get higher grades than the rest. If I submitted the same coin through a major dealer, I would get a higher grade. Unfortunately I don't think any of the major grading services are completely innocent of this form of favoritism. If they are capitalizing more from you they will give you more in return.
rlm's cents
07-20-2013, 09:16 AM
Grading from pictures can be extremely deceiving - particularly with large pictures. What appears to be a crater in the picture cannot even be seen on the coin in hand (without magnification and that is how the professionals grade). I still do not see how they got a 67 out of it. That luster must be a real stunner. All in all, I cannot see a 67, but it might come close.
BadThad
07-20-2013, 09:44 AM
Grading from pictures can be extremely deceiving - particularly with large pictures. What appears to be a crater in the picture cannot even be seen on the coin in hand (without magnification and that is how the professionals grade). I still do not see how they got a 67 out of it. That luster must be a real stunner. All in all, I cannot see a 67, but it might come close.
Right on brother!
People get too concerned with contact marks and such, often those that are very minor in hand seem to explode in a picture. The TPG's like eye appeal and luster FIRST, after that they start to actually grade the coin. :LOL_Hair:
admrose
07-20-2013, 09:52 AM
"Ooooh shiny!" - every TPG service grader ever
liveandievarieties
07-20-2013, 09:58 AM
There's a reason I don't try to grade Red cents from digital images.
There's also a reason I don't collect MS67s and MS68s, they bring too much money. I get the grade once in a rare while, but it pays for the rest of the coins that don't. Which is what covers the cost of the slabbing for the coins in my set.
I've seen countless examples of TPG holders having coins that are far, far from their grade, in both directions.
Slabbing is a means of making a coin more marketable. It's not an investment tool in most cases, it's a way to sell coins that otherwise would bring a fraction of their graded cost.
You may well have a coin that is much finer than the example posted. You also won't be able to get it into an ultra high grade slab.
We do a great deal of slabbing as well as selling slabs. You won't see us collecting or paying moon money for common coins.
I have to disagree with PCGS on this one. My initial thought was MS64 or MS65.
I wish they showed the holder, I would bet that it is in a older holder.
I wish they showed the holder, I would bet that it is in a older holder.
Often, the old holders are considered to have slabbed coins that had been more conservatively graded. What makes you think it was slabbed "back in the day," Brad?
Amadauss
07-20-2013, 08:53 PM
Thanks all for the great responses. Really appreciate it.
ray_parkhurst
07-20-2013, 10:11 PM
Sorry, came in late on this but want to make a point. In fact I just wrote a short blurb on another forum on this subject. This coin pretty obviously has great luster, likely "dripping" luster in normal viewing, and PCGS in particular places huge importance on luster and overall eye appeal versus "technical" grade. Show them a VLDS coin with luster you can read by, and they'll give it 67 or 68 even if it has several significant marks. Show them an EDS coin with subdued luster and just a couple of small marks, and they'll call it a 64. Part of the reason for this is that the luster hides small marks pretty well even in critical viewing, while lack of luster tends to attract attention to even the smallest mark. Another part is that since "market" grading is the norm, a coin with dripping luster is simply worth more than one without, and thus deserves a higher market grade. Photographs, on the other hand, are exceptionally revealing of marks, even for lustrous coins, and don't present luster well. Single photos can only show one angle of luster, and end up emphasizing contact marks because the luster cannot "move around" the coin and thus draw attention away from the marks. I was shocked by some of the MS67RD coins I've seen photos of, yet in every case where I could view the coin normally it had beautiful, perfect, dripping luster.
BadThad
07-21-2013, 09:38 AM
Sorry, came in late on this but want to make a point. In fact I just wrote a short blurb on another forum on this subject. This coin pretty obviously has great luster, likely "dripping" luster in normal viewing, and PCGS in particular places huge importance on luster and overall eye appeal versus "technical" grade. Show them a VLDS coin with luster you can read by, and they'll give it 67 or 68 even if it has several significant marks. Show them an EDS coin with subdued luster and just a couple of small marks, and they'll call it a 64. Part of the reason for this is that the luster hides small marks pretty well even in critical viewing, while lack of luster tends to attract attention to even the smallest mark. Another part is that since "market" grading is the norm, a coin with dripping luster is simply worth more than one without, and thus deserves a higher market grade. Photographs, on the other hand, are exceptionally revealing of marks, even for lustrous coins, and don't present luster well. Single photos can only show one angle of luster, and end up emphasizing contact marks because the luster cannot "move around" the coin and thus draw attention away from the marks. I was shocked by some of the MS67RD coins I've seen photos of, yet in every case where I could view the coin normally it had beautiful, perfect, dripping luster.
VERY well said Ray!