Why do some colour like this?

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  • lara4228
    Member
    • Mar 2011
    • 2116

    #1

    Why do some colour like this?

    1458360291084-395531793.jpg1458360332973-1823843119.jpg

    I see thia more often with older Canadian copper pennies rather than US, but why do they colour like that? Why one and not another?

    Thanks!

    Lara
    What ever you do...do it with passion
  • jfines69
    Paid Member

    • Jun 2010
    • 28618

    #2
    The pics are a little blurry to tell but it appears to be environmental damage which can discolour the coin... Is there any pitting???
    Jim
    (A.K.A. Elmer Fudd) Be verwy verwy quiet... I'm hunting coins!!! Good Hunting!!!

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    • Maineman750
      Administrator

      • Apr 2011
      • 12069

      #3
      Coins are pretty much like people, they age differently because they are exposed to different environments.
      https://www.ebay.com/sch/maineman750...75.m3561.l2562

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      • lara4228
        Member
        • Mar 2011
        • 2116

        #4
        Roger, in reply, I ask a redundant question. For coins that naturally tone, would be the same? Is that why some coins are considered red, red/brown?

        I am sure I have asked this before a few years ago, but it has left me :/

        Sorry
        What ever you do...do it with passion

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        • Maineman750
          Administrator

          • Apr 2011
          • 12069

          #5
          Lara, in order for a coin to tone "naturally"...it would really need to be in a controlled environment. Almost anything can effect toning...something in the air, what kind of container, flip, or album it is stored in...moisture, sunlight, etc..
          The term red is more or less how much natural color remains from it being mint state although they do allow for other factors as long as they don't believe the coin to have been toned on purpose.
          https://www.ebay.com/sch/maineman750...75.m3561.l2562

          Comment

          • jfines69
            Paid Member

            • Jun 2010
            • 28618

            #6
            If I remember my metals correctly if it is Red the makeup is more towards the brass end of the copper alloy mix and brown is more toward the bronze end of the copper alloy mix??? Straight copper would turn green???
            Jim
            (A.K.A. Elmer Fudd) Be verwy verwy quiet... I'm hunting coins!!! Good Hunting!!!

            Comment

            • willbrooks
              Die & Design Expert, LCF Glossary Author

              • Jan 2012
              • 9473

              #7
              Originally posted by Maineman750
              Lara, in order for a coin to tone "naturally"...it would really need to be in a controlled environment.
              You do realize the inherent contradiction there, right? Natural is the exact opposite of being in a controlled environment. Being in a controlled environment is actually the definition of un-natural toning. Now, don't get me wrong. I do know what you are really saying and I agree! Numismatically, we tend to accept certain types of toning and not others. But the fact is, all toning is due to the introduction of harmful "contaminants." Some are intentional, some aren't, but as Jody recently pointed out, all toning is corrosion. We just tend to accept certain types of it, like when the paper that the mint wrapped the coins in turns the dimes blue and the half-dollars yellow. (I have set like this I should post sometime.) It isn't natural at all. The paper did it. Yet people eat these up. Yet, when a coin is TRULY naturally toned and someone digs it up with their metal detector, nobody loves it so much. lol. The whole "natural" toning thing is a fraud, like many aspects of numismatics. As with any art, whether made intentionally or not, you just have to decide what you love and assign a value to it, because, ultimately, you like looking at it.
              Last edited by willbrooks; 03-19-2016, 02:51 PM.
              All opinions expressed are not necessarily shared by willbrooks or his affiliates. Taking them may result in serious side effects. Results may vary. Offer not valid in New Jersey.

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              • Maineman750
                Administrator

                • Apr 2011
                • 12069

                #8
                Yes Will, I do ....and it's much like determining what is collectible
                https://www.ebay.com/sch/maineman750...75.m3561.l2562

                Comment

                • lara4228
                  Member
                  • Mar 2011
                  • 2116

                  #9
                  Oh boy. So Canuck Lara is a wee bit confused then...the coin I posted (and I have managed to have one from each era in the wheaties) resemble a red paint coat-like layer on it.

                  Now, I know it isn't paint. And I generally see this more often on Canadian cents than US. However, I do know that it is from natural occurance and intentional altering.

                  I am wondering if what Jim says sounds the truest...is it the percentage of the alloy (copper...brass) when mixed with other natural elements (air for example) turns a coin deep red or deep brown?

                  Is this what people refer to as "red/brown"?
                  What ever you do...do it with passion

                  Comment

                  • Maineman750
                    Administrator

                    • Apr 2011
                    • 12069

                    #10
                    Originally posted by Maineman750;289235
                    The term red is more or less how much natural color r[B
                    emains from it being mint state [/B]although they do allow for other factors as long as they don't believe the coin to have been toned on purpose.
                    OK...let's try less clutter
                    https://www.ebay.com/sch/maineman750...75.m3561.l2562

                    Comment

                    • jfines69
                      Paid Member

                      • Jun 2010
                      • 28618

                      #11
                      Originally posted by lara4228
                      Oh boy. So Canuck Lara is a wee bit confused then...the coin I posted (and I have managed to have one from each era in the wheaties) resemble a red paint coat-like layer on it.

                      Now, I know it isn't paint. And I generally see this more often on Canadian cents than US. However, I do know that it is from natural occurance and intentional altering.

                      I am wondering if what Jim says sounds the truest...is it the percentage of the alloy (copper...brass) when mixed with other natural elements (air for example) turns a coin deep red or deep brown?

                      Is this what people refer to as "red/brown"?
                      Once the copper or copper alloy (brass or bronze) is introduced to the environment oxidation begins to occur... Due to other contaminants in the environment (Such as oils from human hands) brass will turn a red hue and bronze gets the deep brown with some green hue highlights and copper will turn green hues!!!
                      Jim
                      (A.K.A. Elmer Fudd) Be verwy verwy quiet... I'm hunting coins!!! Good Hunting!!!

                      Comment

                      • Maineman750
                        Administrator

                        • Apr 2011
                        • 12069

                        #12
                        Originally posted by lara4228
                        Is this what people refer to as "red/brown"?
                        No, it is not....your coin would not be slabbed as red or red brown....those designations are reserved for coins with luster...usually MS
                        Last edited by Maineman750; 03-20-2016, 06:26 PM. Reason: clarify
                        https://www.ebay.com/sch/maineman750...75.m3561.l2562

                        Comment

                        • jfines69
                          Paid Member

                          • Jun 2010
                          • 28618

                          #13
                          Originally posted by Maineman750
                          No, it is not....your coin would not be slabbed as red or red brown
                          I missed that... Thanks for covering it!!!
                          Jim
                          (A.K.A. Elmer Fudd) Be verwy verwy quiet... I'm hunting coins!!! Good Hunting!!!

                          Comment

                          • BadThad
                            Member
                            • Jan 2009
                            • 3010

                            #14
                            Originally posted by willbrooks
                            You do realize the inherent contradiction there, right? Natural is the exact opposite of being in a controlled environment. Being in a controlled environment is actually the definition of un-natural toning. Now, don't get me wrong. I do know what you are really saying and I agree! Numismatically, we tend to accept certain types of toning and not others. But the fact is, all toning is due to the introduction of harmful "contaminants." Some are intentional, some aren't, but as Jody recently pointed out, all toning is corrosion. We just tend to accept certain types of it, like when the paper that the mint wrapped the coins in turns the dimes blue and the half-dollars yellow. (I have set like this I should post sometime.) It isn't natural at all. The paper did it. Yet people eat these up. Yet, when a coin is TRULY naturally toned and someone digs it up with their metal detector, nobody loves it so much. lol. The whole "natural" toning thing is a fraud, like many aspects of numismatics. As with any art, whether made intentionally or not, you just have to decide what you love and assign a value to it, because, ultimately, you like looking at it.
                            This is well written! This is why I really, really hate the terms NT/AT, those terms are a fraud. As far as toning, it's either "market acceptable" or "not market acceptable". On the TPG side, IMO, their criteria is simple, it all comes down to whether or not they want the coin in one of their holders. If it doesn't have a market acceptable look (in their opinion), they will not slab it, regardless of the toning source. I've seen dozens of rejected coins over the years, most of them I disagreed with the TPG (and so did my local dealer).
                            VERDI-CARE™ ALL METAL CONSERVATION FLUID

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                            • BadThad
                              Member
                              • Jan 2009
                              • 3010

                              #15
                              To the OP - I've seen this "red" color on a lot of Lincolns. It is NOT what we refer to as red, as Maineman stated. As far as the origin of the color, nobody really knows. We would simply refer to this color as the "patina".
                              VERDI-CARE™ ALL METAL CONSERVATION FLUID

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