How can you tell if it's a Hub break or Laminated die?

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  • fugnchill
    #1

    Error Die Clash/Break | How can you tell if it's a Hub break or Laminated die?

    If the affected area is in the field then the result would be very similar.
    A hub break could be shallow so the depth of the indent wouldn't always be an indicator.
    Laminated dies show a die crack on one edge of the indent so, do laminated dies always show a die crack and hub breaks never (or rarely) show a crack?

    I have a dime that I believe is from a laminated die but I've never seen a coin from a small broken hub. I've read that there isn't much value difference but now I'm curious.

    Anybody seen both and would like to share the knowledge?
    Thanks for your help,
    Lestrrr

    P.S. - I had to put in a date and mint to post this but the question applies to all.
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    • coppercoins
      Lincoln Cent Variety Expert
      • Dec 2008
      • 2482
      #2
      I have no clue what the question is.

      I have never heard of a hub break OR a laminated die.

      There are die cracks and laminated planchets...
      Charles D. Daughtrey, NLG, Author, "Looking Through Lincoln Cents"
      [URL="http://www.coppercoins.com/"]http://www.coppercoins.com[/URL]

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        • fugnchill
          #3
          Hi Chuck,

          Thanks for taking a look at the question. I use "The Official Price Guide to Mint Errors" by Alan Herbert for referencing errors. If you have access to this book, the definition of a Laminated Die is on page 157 and the Hub Break is on page 160. I can type them out if anyone is interested.

          Even though it's not a Lincoln Cent I guess I could just post the pic and ask you what it is.

          Thanks for looking,
          Lestrrr
          Attached Files

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            • coppercoins
              Lincoln Cent Variety Expert
              • Dec 2008
              • 2482
              #4
              That looks like a depression in a die that is about to break out. It's a dime, no?
              Charles D. Daughtrey, NLG, Author, "Looking Through Lincoln Cents"
              [URL="http://www.coppercoins.com/"]http://www.coppercoins.com[/URL]

                Comment

                • fugnchill
                  #5
                  Yup, it's a 2006 D dime.

                  The definition in the book talks about a layer of the lamination on the die coming loose but not fallen off yet. So it makes an indent on the struck coin with a die crack on one side or edge from the metal being forced into or behind the lamination layer.
                  The hub break is basically a portion of the hub broke away totally, creating a raised feature on the master die and ultimately showing an indent on the struck coin. Same as the laminated die.

                  So that's why I posted the original question. I didn't know if the die crack was the only tell-tale sign between the two.

                  Thanks,
                  Lestrrr

                    Comment

                    • trails
                      Moderator, Error Expert
                      • Feb 2008
                      • 3358
                      #6
                      Okay, a hub break can best be explained by looking at two coins. The first is the 1936 Lincoln cent that shows a broken off leg in the R of LIBERTY. The oddity of this working hub break is that it was used in conjunction with a working hub that did not have the broken leg. So, you ended up with working dies that had a complete left leg on the R, a missing left leg on the R and a weak left leg on the R (caused by one working hub with a complete leg and another hubbing with the working hub that was missing the leg). The three major 1936 obverse doubled dies were all hubbed with one working die that had the left leg and one working die that was missing the left leg.

                      The second coin is the 1956 Lincoln cent. Some of the working dies were made with a working hub that had a small piece missing from the bottom of the 6 digit.

                      Both the above examples are from a working hub and I cannot think of an example of a master hub that has been used with such a break. Of course, if it were the master hub, then every coin would have the same appearance showing that break.

                      As to the laminated die. I have not seen an example of this, however, I can imagine the process and the affect that it would cause. It may be that the word "lamination" is not the best since I am not to sure that the die forms that type of layering since it is compressed to a great degree and the atomic bounding is different at this level than what is seen on a lamination peel on a planchet (coin).

                      BJ Neff
                      ANA, CCC, CONECA, FUN, Fly-In-Club, NLG & "The Error-Variety Education Consortium"

                        Comment

                        • fugnchill
                          #7
                          I wasn't sure about the lamination on the die either but that's what it says in the book so I just stayed with that. In regard to the hub break, it was talking about the affect on the design detail but also mentioned the field.

                          Either way, it's a minor error/problem so I'll just note it as die deterioration or deformation...

                          Thank you both for taking a look for me,
                          Lestrrr

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