Can I get a woo hoo 4. My 72

[JTwilson]

http://www.lincolncentforum.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=110940&stc=1http://www.lincolncentforum.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=110941&stc=1http://www.lincolncentforum.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=110942&stc=1http://www.lincolncentforum.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=110943&stc=1http://www.lincolncentforum.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=110944&stc=1http://www.lincolncentforum.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=110945&stc=1

[jfines69]

Looking at the date it is possible this is 004... The other pics are to blurry to be sure on... Variety Vistas 004 has a Stage B sample and I can not not match up any of the markers especially the rim cuds near LIBERTY??? Could be my old age tho :LOL_Hair:

[furryfrog02]

I'm not seeing it (?).

[JTwilson]

The cuds are an exact match only not quite as deep but right beside the word liberty if you widen the pic or zoom in you can see exactly let me see if I can get a better pic

[JTwilson]

http://www.lincolncentforum.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=110957&stc=1http://www.lincolncentforum.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=110958&stc=1Best I can do on cuds PLEASE SAY THAT I HAVE AN EARLY STAGE THE COIN IS TONED AND HAS A FEW SPOTS BUT IS B.U MSRB AND I NEED THE MONEY

[furryfrog02]

Can you get a better (Not so bright) picture of "GOD"? I don't see any doubling there. There is pretty clear doubling in that spot on the Coppercoins example. Also, "WE".
Just because your coin has cuds doesn't mean it's a solid match. I've seen lots of 72's with cuds in that area.

[stoneman227]

I would like to see clearer picks of the areas already mentioned.
Markers are important in identifying dies but they are there to support the variety not define it. Hope this one turns out for you.

[tomfiggy]

I don't see any doubling. If IGWT is the only doubled area it could be master die doubling.

[JTwilson]

http://www.lincolncentforum.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=110959&stc=1http://www.lincolncentforum.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=110960&stc=1http://www.lincolncentforum.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=110961&stc=1http://www.lincolncentforum.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=110959&stc=1http://www.lincolncentforum.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=110962&stc=1Hopefully this is better the doubling is there but just not very strong but I think you will be able to see it on the G and the Oand D not that much on on the O&D

[JTwilson]

The cuds match exactly not as far up but look at the other woohoo72 post and the cud directly beside the L in liberty I'm not arguing to say your wrong I'm just arguing to HOPE that I'm right . I feel like I deserve a break and to show all these non believers that keep telling me I'm wasting my time staring at pennies all day or as my son says Daddy you playin coins ? I really don't want to get my hopes up but MAN IT WOULD BE NICE!!!.

[furryfrog02]

Yeah, still not seeing. IMO you don't have it. Keep looking though, there's nothing wrong with "playin coins" :)

[JTwilson]

If the cuds are there and they are the same shape and size then how can it not be from the same die ?
Yeah, still not seeing. IMO you don't have it. Keep looking though, there's nothing wrong with "playin coins" :)

[JTwilson]

I at a minimum need some clarity on this we can call mine DDO41\2 but I can't see this being just an ordinary penny considering the cuds are the same anyway I will post more pics so someone can give me a clear 100% answer

[furryfrog02]

Cuds and appear anywhere on any number of coins. Like I said earlier, I've seen many 72s with cuds in the same area as die 4. I think it is probably a common place for them though I dunno for sure, I'm not an expert. I don't see an exact-exact match from your pictures to the ones shown on 004.
Like stoneman said, "Markers are important in identifying dies but they are there to support the variety not define it."
Just because you have cuds does not automatically make it die 4. You still have to have the doubling, which in my opinion from looking at your pictures, isn't there.

[furryfrog02]

I at a minimum need some clarity on this we can call mine DDO41\2 but I can't see this being just an ordinary penny considering the cuds are the same anyway I will post more pics so someone can give me a clear 100% answer
Call it what you want, but it's not Die 4, nor is it doubled.

[stoneman227]

The rim cuds on this die did change as the dies short life progressed but the die scratch at the N of United would have remained in the same spot.
On your coin the scratch meets the N on the left vertical side of the bottom corner. If you look at the pics on Coppercoins.com you will see that the scratch meets that N to the right bottm side of that corner.
Check this out on your coin to confirm for yourself what you have.

John

[JTwilson]

If the cuds are there and they are the same shape and size then how can it not be from the same die ?
Yeah, still not seeing. IMO you don't have it. Keep looking though, there's nothing wrong with "playin coins" :)

[WaterSport]

Sorry my fellow collector - but cuds mean nothing for this coin. Sure, they are a great marker but not a drop dead spot on indicator for this particular coin. In fact, there are EDS examples with no cuds whatsoever - BUT - all dies states do have doubling. If those REV die scratches are in the correct spot, length, number, etc. Then what you may have is the example of the # 4 Rev Die marriage with a new Obv die. Still a cool find. Let us know what you see.

WS

[JTwilson]

http://www.lincolncentforum.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=110970&stc=1http://www.lincolncentforum.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=110971&stc=1http://www.lincolncentforum.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=110972&stc=1If the cuds are there and they are the same shape and size then how can it not be from the same die ?[QUOTE=furryfrog02;294229]Yeah, still not seeing. IMO you don't have it. Keep looking though, there's nothing wrong with "playin chttp://www.lincolncentforum.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=110971&stc=1http://www.lincolncentforum.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=110971&stc=1oins" :)[/QUOThttp://www.lincolncentforum.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=110972&stc=1http://www.lincolncentforum.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=110973&stc=1E]

[JTwilson]

http://www.lincolncentforum.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=110974&stc=1http://www.lincolncentforum.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=110974&stc=1

[JTwilson]

So I have a 72 with no doubling ? So no #1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8 .........nothing but wasted time once again I'm beginning to think I am wasting my time hell I really don't even feel like messing with this sh*t anymore I thought I had great coins sent them to great collections auction the damn things cost me more to give them away then had I kept them raw and sold them myself now I spend all morning thinking I have a def. Winner and as always NADA . I have so many coins I couldn't give um away ARGHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!

[furryfrog02]

Again, where is the doubling on IGWT? If it's not there, it doesn't matter that your coin has cuds on the rims.

[furryfrog02]

So I have a 72 with no doubling ? So no #1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8 .........nothing but wasted time once again I'm beginning to think I am wasting my time hell I really don't even feel like messing with this sh*t anymore I thought I had great coins sent them to great collections auction the damn things cost me more to give them away then had I kept them raw and sold them myself now I spend all morning thinking I have a def. Winner and as always NADA . I have so many coins I couldn't give um away ARGHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!
Don't give up. Keep looking. You are gonna have way more duds than winners. How long have you been searching if you don't mind me asking?

[tomfiggy]

The cuds match exactly not as far up but look at the other woohoo72 post and the cud directly beside the L in liberty I'm not arguing to say your wrong I'm just arguing to HOPE that I'm right . I feel like I deserve a break and to show all these non believers that keep telling me I'm wasting my time staring at pennies all day or as my son says Daddy you playin coins ? I really don't want to get my hopes up but MAN IT WOULD BE NICE!!!.

I have felt the same way you do before. It does not matter how you feel about the coin, how much you deserve it, how bad you need money, or if your kids think you are crazy (my kids have no doubt I'm crazy). The only thing that matters is if that is the coin or not. I don't see the doubling on the L of Liberty on yours. There are a lot of 1972's that have Master die doubling on IN GOD WE TRUST. That type of doubling is on the master die and is transferred to all working dies made with it. It is technically an error but so common it's not worth a premium. Scroll down to the bottom of this page where he talks about the 1972's

http://www.doubleddie.com/203801.html

[jfines69]

I must agree with the others... I do not see any of the DD... Don't get discouraged... I still get excited about MD until I take a second third fourth and 5th look :LOL_Hair:

[Chugly]

Yes, please don't get too frustrated JT. This hobby is the king of disappointments! However, just when things start to look bleak, BAM, you run into a ton of cool stuff. It takes a thick skin, a huge knowledge base and tons of perseverance to do well with Cherrypicking. However if you put the time in, your skills will automatically improve and it then gets to be real fun. Kind of like steelhead fishing, where you have to make like 1,000 strike out cast's in a row, but then suddenly a fish is hooked, usually just before you're about to quit the whole sport for good!

[furryfrog02]

I was about to give up looking at 72s all together when I pulled my 001 :).

[WaterSport]

I admit its crazy and frustrating all at the same time. Heck, the terminology, the cross referencing, etc., will drive you nuts. But its all about the reward. Ain’t nobody going to be rewarded until you search, its as simple as that.

WS

[Roller]

I've stayed out of the fray from the start, in part because I felt your need to be right. This was a no go from the start. Frustration is OK. We all go through it. If you are thinking of random searching of cents for profit, I would forget it altogether. You don't get lucky enough times to pay for your time. If you want to make a business of it, supplement your searching with good buys (cherry picks) of coins others have found. The way you spend your money is your own business. If you make mistakes learn from them and if you like the hobby; plow on. There is a nugget down the road if you stick to it long enough.

[onecent1909]

markers are just that... markers for that exact die state.
any part of the coin can have scratches polish marks, cuds, chips, and they can be the same size and shape as others.
markers will ID which die state you have, not whether you do or do not have a doubled die
the die in question has been found with no rim cuds at all.
so you look for the doubling then the markers.

and as far as finding nice valuable coins.
I have found a few nice good ddo and ddr but not bunches..
and I have a lot of search time and books and experience.
If they were easy to find... they would not be valuable, or wanted
some of our members search multiple $25 boxes each week
You are doing fine.. this is a learning curve and you are working just right
Keep going. one day you will hit it big.

[duece2seven]

I've been avoiding my 72's for years now, JT, because I KNOW I simply do not have the skill and patience to search them properly. I'm not saying you don't but give yourself a little more credit. Even though this year offers an abundance of DDO'S, the more subtle one's require more skill and experience than any other DDO of any other year that I can think of! I dread the thought of even searching the 72's. Trust me, bro, you haven't failed! You simply want to find this TOO much! I've been there. In your mind you are looking so hard your brain plays tricks on you and you see things that just aren't there. It's happened to everyone in this forum multiple times before. Believe that! I applaud your guts in voicing your frustration. It's absolutely necessary at times in this hobby. Just remember, this is where you decide if all this is worth it to you. The only thing separating you from the other wizards here is they made the decision long ago that the reward was worth the grief. That's it! Time, education, patience, and experience equal success.

[willbrooks]

I've stayed out of the fray from the start, in part because I felt your need to be right. This was a no go from the start. Frustration is OK. We all go through it. If you are thinking of random searching of cents for profit, I would forget it altogether. You don't get lucky enough times to pay for your time. If you want to make a business of it, supplement your searching with good buys (cherry picks) of coins others have found. The way you spend your money is your own business. If you make mistakes learn from them and if you like the hobby; plow on. There is a nugget down the road if you stick to it long enough.

This is exactly what my comment was going to be. I think I was the first person to view this thread this morning, but I simply moved along, because I felt the same way Roller did. I see no doubled die at all, and I don't even see the die scratch markers on the reverse which you seem to keep showing pictures of. They aren't there. The thing is, as I recall, this reverse die was actually re-used with a new obverse. (Maybe I am confusing this with something else so someone please confirm or rebuke me on this.) Anyway, if I remember that correctly, this means that EVEN IF you could confirm that same reverse die with the die scratches (which you haven't), you STILL cannot use it to confirm the obverse variety! I know, it's a bitch. You need the obverse doubling to be a match, otherwise the markers mean absolutely nothing. I can tell you this, rim cuds to the West of LIBERTY which "match" the die 4 rim cud are extremely common. If you really sit down and search, you will find them all of the time. That verifies absolutely nothing. As for your frustration, I will take the opposite approach as everyone else (which I tend to do). This hobby isn't for everyone, and so far I believe you are one of those people. This takes a ridiculous amount of time, patience, searching, studying, reading, and eating crow. This isn't checkers in the park. 99.9999% of us who DO know exactly what to look for will still never find a 1972 die4 in the wild. That is why it is valuable. Now, go prove me wrong and tell me to go to the devil.

[jay4202472000]

I've been avoiding my 72's for years now, JT, because I KNOW I simply do not have the skill and patience to search them properly. I'm not saying you don't but give yourself a little more credit. Even though this year offers an abundance of DDO'S, the more subtle one's require more skill and experience than any other DDO of any other year that I can think of! I dread the thought of even searching the 72's. Trust me, bro, you haven't failed! You simply want to find this TOO much! I've been there. In your mind you are looking so hard your brain plays tricks on you and you see things that just aren't there. It's happened to everyone in this forum multiple times before. Believe that! I applaud your guts in voicing your frustration. It's absolutely necessary at times in this hobby. Just remember, this is where you decide if all this is worth it to you. The only thing separating you from the other wizards here is they made the decision long ago that the reward was worth the grief. That's it! Time, education, patience, and experience equal success.

I agree completely. See my thread here:

http://www.lincolncentforum.com/forum/showthread.php?38588-My-worst-screw-up&p=294273#post294273

[willbrooks]

...and just in case anyone thinks it was always easy for me, just have a look at this picture.

http://www.lincolncentforum.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=110985&stc=1


But did I let that stop me? No! "Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? No! And it's not over now!"

http://www.lincolncentforum.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=110986&stc=1

[jay4202472000]

...and just in case anyone thinks it was always easy for me, just have a look at this picture.

http://www.lincolncentforum.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=110985&stc=1


But did I let that stop me? No! "Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? No! And it's not over now!"

http://www.lincolncentforum.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=110986&stc=1


We we need a "love" button on here!

[onecent1909]

The thing is, as I recall, this reverse die was actually re-used with a new obverse. (Maybe I am confusing this with something else so someone please confirm or rebuke me on this.) Anyway, if I remember that correctly, this means that EVEN IF you could confirm that same reverse die with the die scratches (which you haven't), you STILL cannot use it to confirm the obverse variety!

You are correct Will.
The reverse die was reused with a different obverse die when the Die Rim Cuds were seen by mint employees and they removed the die.
This is why it is so rare. the die was removed earlier than the other dies making less coins struck to be found.

[Maineman750]

Always look for the variety itself before you look for markers....and yes Will, the reverse was used with another obverse...I have one or two around here somewhere.

[Roller]

I actually have two examples of the reverse on the new obverse.

[duece2seven]

JT, I think you should consider trading some of your Memorials for some D and S mintmark Wheats. Any year from 1956 to 1958 will provide you with tons of RPMs. 1960 Memorials are even better. This will give you a much needed taste of success while simultaneously keeping your brain stimulated to keep searching. It will also give you as proper an education in marker matching as you can get. The RPMs are so numerous you could spend years just trying to attribute them all. This is what I did 2 years ago when I was fed up with doubled dies. I didn't even look for double dies for close to a year. What I found was that searching strictly RPMs trained my eye to see double dies as well. Take a break from these mind benders for a while and have some fun. If you are still frustrated after this process, I would seriously consider another hobby. Good luck!

[JTwilson]

I have literally 40-50 rolls of 40's and 50's and the RPMs don't do it for me as for finding another hobby I don't think you get to choose what interests you because as pissed off as I was I was back at it later on last night and I will be again tonight of course I just purchased a hoard of memorial cents like around 65.00 face value of Brilliant Uncirculated rolls starting at 1960&ending at 89D I have been selling them but who buys 73-79 rolls there aren't any anything in them not to my knowledge anyway but I have to much backbone to just quit I WILL FIND at a minimum one coin that will finance my hobby because I enjoy this way to much and I am glad I found this site because the people who are on this site are what makes me feel better about (PLAYIN COINS) THANKYOU TO ALL WHO RESPONDED AND LEFT ENCOURAGING MESSAGES I APPRECIATE IT VERY MUCH . THIS IS A HELL OF A GROUP WITH A LOT OF KNOWLEDGE AND APPRECIATION FOR THE HOBBY!

[JTwilson]

Couple of years

[Chugly]

I love it JT! You have the sickness just like the rest of us:)! Good for you to stick with it! It is most difficult in the early days because its hard to really single out what to look for. This is a hobby that takes a find to make more finds. There is something about actually finding a specific variety that open's the floodgates for more stuff later. Just stick with it and you can laugh about all the tough times later.

[jfines69]

People are still finding new DDRs from 1909 (CentMD has 3 new)... So you never know what may be in those rolls???

[tomfiggy]

It's funny because I have been so disappointed so many times with this hobby. I was searching for about 9 months before I found my first DDO. It was another 9 months for my second. I have found about 20 now, mostly minor but a few really nice ones. I have posted about 100 MD samples on other forums. Each time I was devastated to learn I had nothing. Rare coins are hard to find.... I have been ready to quit so many times, and then I find a nice one and I'm hooked all over again. Then I search 10 boxes and find nothing.... I know there are more right around the corner.