2017 P DDO or WWHO-002

[makecents]

I'm wondering if this is a new DDO or just the WWHO-002. The notching at the southeast corners looks more extreme though and the B looks all out of sorts. This one was a mean one to get pics of. Let me know what you think. http://doubleddie.com/2318537.html

Thanks, Jon.

[VAB2013]

Jon, I think I see a die dot or gouge between the R and T on the WWHO-002 do you see it on your coin? I see something there.

If the delisted ones were still on the site (but shown as delisted) that might make things easier to determine by knowing the markers of those, at least narrow it down some.

[makecents]

I'm not sure Viv, it might be there but there is a lot of other junk in there too, can't really tell. I was doing the same thing, trying to find any little marker. The notching just seemed a lot more extreme on this one than any other listing to me.

[VAB2013]

Can you post a close up of the date?

[makecents]

Can you post a close up of the date?Let me know if you need any others. Thanks!!

[VAB2013]

Thank you Jon for the date pic, not seeing anything there but I think yours does have more notching on the SE corners of Liberty! Let's see what the guys say!

[jfines69]

I think it is WWHO-002 http://doubleddie.com/2318537.html There appears to be a small die dot showing on Wexlers sample on the ESE corner of the Bs lower bump and unless the lighting is causing it there appears to be a die dot on your coin also just slightly larger... What looks like more of a slant on the TY looks to be from circ wear displacing metal and the shadow along the east side just not 100% sure tho???

[makecents]

I think it is WWHO-002 http://doubleddie.com/2318537.html There appears to be a small die dot showing on Wexlers sample on the ESE corner of the Bs lower bump and unless the lighting is causing it there appears to be a die dot on your coin also just slightly larger... What looks like more of a slant on the TY looks to be from circ wear displacing metal and the shadow along the east side just not 100% sure tho???That makes cents :D about the die wear, this one definitely has an LDS look to it. I kept trying to find some sort of markers from Wexlers pics and could not match any but you found a good one, I didn't even pay attention to little bit of the B that was showing. Thanks Jim!! Another spot on attribution!!

[jfines69]

That makes cents :D about the die wear, this one definitely has an LDS look to it. I kept trying to find some sort of markers from Wexlers pics and could not match any but you found a good one, I didn't even pay attention to little bit of the B that was showing. Thanks Jim!! Another spot on attribution!!
Glad I could help... Eventually everything will make cents :LOL_Hair:

[GrumpyEd]

On the WWHOs aren't there a bunch of dies so markers might be partially useless unless the pics of the listed coin by chance matches the die used for the coin you find.

I'm asking, seriously (even though it's probably a silly question) because I haven't been doing much with shield cents at all so I don't have a feeling for if it's easy to find WWHOs like older master doubled dies or if they're more scarce because there's still a lot of dies without it. Are there really a bunch of different dies (roughly how many??) for each of these WWHOs?

[VAB2013]

On the WWHOs aren't there a bunch of dies so markers might be partially useless unless the pics of the listed coin by chance matches the die used for the coin you find.

I'm asking, seriously (even though it's probably a silly question) because I haven't been doing much with shield cents at all so I don't have a feeling for if it's easy to find WWHOs like older master doubled dies or if they're more scarce because there's still a lot of dies without it. Are there really a bunch of different dies (roughly how many??) for each of these WWHOs?

Ed, a couple of years ago I asked Maineman the same question when I first started going through solid boxes of Shield's and I cannot remember the number, but I was surprised at his estimate on the number of different dies used, it was a very large number...

I found the thread, it was estimated by Maineman and Will to be between 8,000 to 12,000 different dies. Here is the link to that thread
http://www.lincolncentforum.com/forum/showthread.php?37625-RE-2016P-s-how-many-different-dies-are-used-normally-in-a-year&highlight=trail

[makecents]

On the WWHOs aren't there a bunch of dies so markers might be partially useless unless the pics of the listed coin by chance matches the die used for the coin you find.

I'm asking, seriously (even though it's probably a silly question) because I haven't been doing much with shield cents at all so I don't have a feeling for if it's easy to find WWHOs like older master doubled dies or if they're more scarce because there's still a lot of dies without it. Are there really a bunch of different dies (roughly how many??) for each of these WWHOs?To some extent, the 2017 P's have become a little project of mine. I called this out a couple of months ago figuring this would happen. There were just too many similarities between the varieties. As of right now with Wexlers attributions there are 8 WWHO-001'S and 3 WWHO-002'S. It's a mess!


I just realized you guys were talking about dies. Wow, that's a whole different can of worms, I was just talking about the different varieties that were involved in the WWHO's.

[VAB2013]

To some extent the 2017 P's have become a little project of mine. I called this out a couple of months ago figuring this would happen. There were just too many similarities between the varieties. As of right now with Wexlers attributions there are 8 WWHO-001'S and 3 WWHO-002'S. It's a mess!

Jon, I was updating the thread just above yours at the same time you were posting. Considering the huge number of dies used in a year's time, no wonder this has become such a mess! I'm trying to remember other years with doubled working hubs, 1989 comes to my mind but I'm sure there are other years.

[GrumpyEd]

Ed, a couple of years ago I asked Maineman the same question when I first started going through solid boxes of Shield's and I cannot remember the number, but I was surprised at his estimate on the number of different dies used, it was a very large number...

I found the thread, it was estimated by Maineman and Will to be between 8,000 to 12,000 different dies. Here is the link to that thread
http://www.lincolncentforum.com/forum/showthread.php?37625-RE-2016P-s-how-many-different-dies-are-used-normally-in-a-year&highlight=trail




What I mean is out of that 8000-12000 how many would be the same WWHO.
Somewhere on here there is a thread that shows dies relating back upstream like a tree.
Like in 72 with the master doubling, it was like hundreds of dies have the master doubling.
That's really my question, at the WWHO level I'm wondering based on a die tree like that if that means a few or tens or hundreds or thousands of different dies per WWHO.

[makecents]

What I mean is out of that 8000-12000 how many would be the same WWHO.
Somewhere on here there is a thread that shows dies relating back upstream like a tree.
Like in 72 with the master doubling, it was like hundreds of dies have the master doubling.
That's really my question, at the WWHO level I'm wondering based on a die tree like that if that means a few or tens or hundreds or thousands of different dies per WWHO.Given the fact that the 2 WWHO's were just realized I would think that would take a bit of a study to figure. JMHO.

[GrumpyEd]

Given the fact that the 2 WWHO's were just realized I would think that would take a bit of a study to figure. JMHO.

In a rough way I'm assuming its "some dies" not a whole lot but I'm wondering if "some dies" is a few or dozens/hundreds.

I think it can't be classified as a WWHO unless there are multiple dies known or how else would the attributor know it's from a doubled working hub.
I'm confused because everyone is talking about die markers matching but with multiple dies there will be different markers other than defects carried over from the working hub.

[makecents]

In a rough way I'm assuming its "some dies" not a whole lot but I'm wondering if "some dies" is a few or dozens/hundreds.

I think it can't be classified as a WWHO unless there are multiple dies known or how else would the attributor know it's from a doubled working hub.
I'm confused because everyone is talking about die markers matching but with multiple dies there will be different markers other than defects carried over from the working hub.That's a very good point and you are waaaay above my pay grade now! Maybe Wexler could give us some insight being he is the one listing two different doubled working hubs?

[makecents]

I actually found what I know was a 2016 P doubled die tonight but after going through the list of DDO's I felt as if I might be going down the same path I went with the 2017 P's. There were what I felt like a lot of similarities in the varieties and I tossed the coin.

[VAB2013]

In a rough way I'm assuming its "some dies" not a whole lot but I'm wondering if "some dies" is a few or dozens/hundreds.

I think it can't be classified as a WWHO unless there are multiple dies known or how else would the attributor know it's from a doubled working hub.
I'm confused because everyone is talking about die markers matching but with multiple dies there will be different markers other than defects carried over from the working hub.

It is confusing Ed, if the doubling is on the working hub and that is transferred to the working dies then I would think with two being found, there are probably more undiscovered. Since the markers on these doubled working dies will vary therein lies our problem trying to attribute a variety.

Edit: Do you think the doubled working hub is determined after a certain number of the same dies are seen? Like, after a certain number of thousands are found to be the same? That would certainly be a tedious task!

[VAB2013]

I actually found what I know was a 2016 P doubled die tonight but after going through the list of DDO's I felt as if I might be going down the same path I went with the 2017 P's. There were what I felt like a lot of similarities in the varieties and I tossed the coin.

Good point Jon, sometimes it's hard to toss those but I've had to make myself do that recently. It's kind of a catch 22... you want to attribute them, or see if they are a new variety, but if nothing on the coin is catching your attention enough to spend the time on it, then I toss too.

[GrumpyEd]

It is confusing Ed, if the doubling is on the working hub and that is transferred to the working dies then I would think with two being found, there are probably more undiscovered. Since the markers on these doubled working dies will vary therein lies our problem trying to attribute a variety.

Edit: Do you think the doubled working hub is determined after a certain number of the same dies are seen? Like, after a certain number of thousands are found to be the same? That would certainly be a tedious task!


Good question for the attributors.
I can only assume that one is found and probably listed as a DDO then somehow more are found with the same doubling and maybe markers prove that they are from different dies. But I don't see how they would clue in that they are not just similar DDOs unless they start seeing many with different markers in the same stage.

Even the 72 master doubled die started out as being listed as Coneca die-5 and then replaced by another die when they realized it was a master doubled die. And in that case with the 72 (I think) it's split near the tree top, like 2 masters so half of the thousands of dies will either be from it or from the other. So (I think) a doubled working hub would be much lower down the tree so the number of dies with it would only be equal to the number of dies they make per working hub. I assume it would also make it much harder for an attributor to realize they are not just similar DDOs. I'd think they need to get enough of them and study them to see they are not the same die but share something from the doubled working hub and that's harder since they're harder to find. That's why I wanted to see the thread that I can't find that shows the tree, so we can visualize where these fit in and roughly see how many working dies there could be for each WWHO.

[VAB2013]

I think onecent1909 John did that tree illustration, I will look for it.

[GrumpyEd]

I think onecent1909 John did that tree illustration, I will look for it.



That is what I remember but couldn't find it. Maybe it archived?

[VAB2013]

Here it is
http://www.lincolncentforum.com/forum/showthread.php?40298-Doubled-Working-Hub-confusion&highlight=working+dies

[GrumpyEd]

Here it is
http://www.lincolncentforum.com/forum/showthread.php?40298-Doubled-Working-Hub-confusion&highlight=working+dies



Great Viv!, that's the tree diagram so we can visualize it.
In that example there would be 3 working dies.

But, he does say it's a hypothetical number.
So we might know more if someone has a better idea of the average number of modern cent dies made from each working hub.

I remember once seeing a list of all the dies made by year for moderns, not sure if info exists for which working hub they made them from or how many working hubs total. I'm not sure where I saw that, it might not be from here.

[VAB2013]

Great Viv!, that's the tree diagram so we can visualize it.
In that example there would be 3 working dies.

But, he does say it's a hypothetical number.
So we might know more if someone has a better idea of the average number of modern cent dies made from each working hub.

I remember once seeing a list of all the dies made by year for moderns, not sure if info exists for which working hub they made them from or how many working hubs total. I'm not sure where I saw that, it might not be from here.

That would be good to know if you can find it again Ed. Could we get a rough estimate by the year mintage and doing the math backwards?

[GrumpyEd]

Viv, I don't remember if it was here or on CU but for some modern date cents someone was able to look up the total number of dies used for modern year cents.

It would be nice if it showed the masters but I doubt it did. :)

[makecents]

Here it is
http://www.lincolncentforum.com/forum/showthread.php?40298-Doubled-Working-Hub-confusion&highlight=working+diesVery nice guys!! Thank you Viv and Ed, unfortunately I cannot always follow off of verbal alone. That diagram definitely puts all you guys have said into perspective and makes it much easier to understand how many there could be out there. As Ed brought up about the 72 master DD, it evolved as time went and more was understood as to what had happened. I could see that being the same case here with the 2017P Doubled Hubs. I could see it evolving as more time passes and studies go on.

This almost makes me want to start an aggravation can just for 2017P's that I'm questioning until more is found out and then go back to them.:D

[jfines69]

Wexler has identified 2 doubled working hubs... Of the 17 listed DDOs for 2017 he removed 11... 8 of the DDOs trace back to WWHO-001 and 3 to WWHO-002 http://doubleddie.com/2318537.html (NOTE: There may be a typo between Wexlers initial information and Comments for the listed WHOs as the total number of working dies in the Comments sections add up to 13)... In the Comments for WHO-001 he shows 9 dies and in WHO-002 there are 4... I was basing the marker on what was available to view... No idea if it actually transferred from the working hub to the working dies but it fits for now :LOL_Hair: The only way I can think of to find out how many working hubs and dies were made is to ask the mint or treasury... I don't know any one there so it would have to be done thru a FOIA request... Since all the dies are tracked by serial number the mint should have a record!!!