1949 S looking markers

[dinkyblue]

Found a couple of these together in the same roll, both are RPM's here is the first one. These have a low mintage of (64,290.000) I thought it would be easy to find because of the die gouge on the top left side of the G in GOD wrong, Two of the listing show die gouges but they are in different locations close to the rim by L in LIBERTY. I'm still looking for a match, all help is appreciated .................dinkyblue

[mustbebob]

There is only one of the DDO/RPM combos and that would be 1949S-1DO-002.

Not great pics on the site but the MM location looks good.

http://coppercoins.com/lincoln/diestate.php?date=1949&die_id=1949s1do002&die_state=mds

[dinkyblue]

I was just looking at CC IMM 014, the MM one mine looked to me to be tilted and the only one I saw that was tilted was 014. also if you look at the images for 014 the E in ONE looks to be a pretty close match. Tell me what you think.............Dan

[jfines69]

Nice find... I'm with Bob... Yours is CCs DDo-002 http://coppercoins.com/lincoln/diestate.php?date=1949&die_id=1949s1do002&die_state=mds coupled with 1MM-013 http://www.coppercoins.com/lincoln/diestate.php?date=1949&die_id=1949s1mm013&die_state=mds I think what may be throwing you off is the late die stage of yours... CCs are both MDS and yours appears to be a VLDS... CCs crosses to VVs DDO-002 http://varietyvista.com/01a%20LC%20Doubled%20Dies%20Vol%201/1949SDDO002.htm The Stage C on VV is equal to a CC LDS and there appears to be abrasions around your date and ERTY that match... Yours are a little lighter than VVs for the most part due to your die stage... Also your MM looks correct for CCs 013... The MM on CCs 014 http://www.coppercoins.com/lincoln/diestate.php?date=1949&die_id=1949s1mm014&die_state=mds looks nearly N/S and is also to far east... Hope that helps a little!!!

[mustbebob]

Jim has it right. As far as the similarities to 1MM-014, they (The scratches you noted) are close, but not exact. However...something very important to remember here. Reverse dies can be changed and there is precedent when that has occurred. Matching a reverse marker normally does nothing when you are trying to verify an obverse variety for that very reason. If you fail to find markers on the obverse to verify your obverse variety, then overlays would be your next step if the reverse is suspect. This one is an easy one so don't over analyze these. There is plenty to over analyze when you are dealing with 1960D RPMs (All 173 of them). :tinysmile_twink_t:

[dinkyblue]

Easy for you, You were right all a long. I knew this was an RPM of some kind, but I can say honestly I didn't see it being a DDO at all. I'm not seeing what you are my knowledge of coin collecting is more like the beginner stage not even advanced. I think the overlay's is a good idea for me. I have learned that the position of the mint mark is a key point for attribution. I was very surprised when I read what CC say's about this one being hard to find. A man once told me "you can't find what you are looking for, if you don't look for it" not really sure what that means, but I'll keep looking: I have to thank Jim again for his knowledge he always points me in the right direction every time. I was close but no cigar....................Dan

[GrumpyEd]

The key thing is...

Is that a blunt over pointed 4 DDO?

It has something going on at the top of the 4 but it also looks like there is a hit on the top of the 9 and the 4 so I'm not certain if it's a hit there or is it a blunt over pointed 4.

If it is a blunt over pointed 4 and an RPM and the position matches then likely to be 1DO-002... But first verify if it is a blunt over pointed 4 or not.

Added:

I sort of assumed you thought it is a blunt over pointed 4 because in the top of the thread you listed it as a DDO.

[dinkyblue]

Here are a couple of close up shots of the 4 and 9 in the date.................Dan

[GrumpyEd]

Here are a couple of close up shots of the 4 and 9 in the date.................Dan

From the sideway pic, it does not look like the blunt over pointed. It looks like a normal blunt top with a hit that smeared the top and that would rule out 1MM-013.

[dinkyblue]

Interesting, That's what I was looking at, when I compare the 4 to CC DDO 002 it doesn't look the same, however looking at the 1 and the 9 in the date they do look the same it is a little puzzling to me.+ Thank you for your thought.................Dan

[mustbebob]

Your top pic looked like the pointed/blunt 4 and that is what I was basing my comments on. If it is not the DDO, then as GrumpyEd pointed out, that eliminated 1MM-013 and we can go on from there. I also took it for granted that you were talking about the DDO as you had that in your title also. You are correct...it is easier for me, but I don't know everything. After all, I have been doing this for 50 years (give or take a minute or so).

[dinkyblue]

That's about 45 years longer than me, I'm not sure about it being a DDO or not, however I'm sure it is an RPM just which one is still to be determined. Now Jim is in agreement with you, He also say's it is CC DDO 002 coupled with IMM 013, and GrumpyEd seems to disagree because of the 4 in the date, he say's it doesn't look like the blunted 4 in the date, and ME I'm not sure. I'v looked at all of them several times and I can't find any markers except for the E in CENT on the reverse that is close to CC 014, you stated that it is "similar but not a exact match" and that I should look for markers on the obverse or something that would point to the attribution on the obverse. Now I don't have near the knowledge of you guy's and most surly need help on this one. It is worth messing with because of the low mintage I'ts one of the lowest ones. I posted this extra picture after taking several very close up shots and I think it does show the die dot east of the T in TRUST that is shown on the CC's DDO 002. My thoughts are the 4 in the date took a hit, it is blunted and smeared a little. But after seeing the dot, I think Jim got it right. Please post your comments .....................Dan

[mustbebob]

Dan...let me see if I have other examples of that DDO. Any of those may be a different die state than the one on coppercoins. I don't know if the die dot you refer to is actually on the die, or maybe some circulation issue. You should be able to tell the pointed top/blunt top 4 easily. If you are having issues verifying that, then we may be on the wrong track. It is definitely an RPM though, so give me a little bit so I can see what I've got here.

[jfines69]

With permission from Copper Coins (Thank you Bob) I created an overlay of Dans over CCs 002 http://coppercoins.com/lincoln/diestate.php?date=1949&die_id=1949s1do002&die_state=mds the only differences I can see are from the heavy die wear,circ wear and PSD... The MM and date line up with the exception of the top of 4 which throws me unless it is due to die wear... It does look like a portion of the knub above the 4 is still there on Dans coin???

[GrumpyEd]

That sidaways pic makes it look like there is no point on the 4, it's hard to tell if the hit pushed metal up making a nub on a blunt 4 or possibly if it was a pointed 4 the hit smeared it. Sort of a bummer that the hit is right there.

Hard to know for sure unless markers match.

[dinkyblue]

I would say that's good strong evidence that it is in fact CCs 002 coupled with RPM IMM 013 together with low mintage of 64,290,000, you know what I call that? "a diamond in the rough" I am pleased. I have examined the 4 in the date and my conclusion is it took a hit somewhere along the way causing it to look the way it does. I can see part of the nub through the microscope, also it does have heavy die wear, circulation wear PSD...... (post stress syndrome) I have to agree with you and Bob, he got it right the first time just by looking I remember him saying " this is an easy one" I thank you both for your expertise and thanks for the overlay's Jim, I'm trying to learn how to do them ..................Dan Here is another image of the throat area of a old die clash, it seems to match CC IMM 003 it is in the same position, please have a look and tell me your thoughts..........Dan

[GrumpyEd]

I have a nice unc. It should have some good markers but I'm not sure of the die state. When I get a chance I'll dig it out and compare the lines on yours.

[jfines69]

I have a nice unc. It should have some good markers but I'm not sure of the die state. When I get a chance I'll dig it out and compare the lines on yours.
The only explanation I can come up with the 4 is heavy die wear, a hit and circ wear... It looks to be a VLDS??? Are you going to post images of yours???

[dinkyblue]

I posted another pic of the throat area, have a look at CC IMM 003, they look to be in the same position................Dan

[jfines69]

I posted another pic of the throat area, have a look at CC IMM 003, they look to be in the same position................Dan
I looked at CCs 1MM-003
http://www.coppercoins.com/lincoln/diestate.php?date=1949&die_id=1949s1mm003&die_state=mds and compared to yours... I do not see any clash remnants on your coin... That does not mean any thing tho as it could be worn away... I am surprised at how close the MM positions are and how they look... The 1 is also nearly identical between all 3 coins almost as if that is from a hub??? I need to do new overlays of 1MM-003, yours and 1MM-013 I shall report back!!!

[jfines69]

With permission from Copper Coins (Thank you Bob) I created a new overlay using CCs 003 http://www.coppercoins.com/lincoln/diestate.php?date=1949&die_id=1949s1mm003&die_state=mds and your MM is to far north... That MM was extremely close in appearance and location... Nearly perfect for the east/west alignment but not the north/south!!!

[dinkyblue]

That pretty much narrows it down, if it's not the CC 002 then I don't have a clue to which one it could be, unless it is a new one or something. GumpyEd and mustbebob said they have samples somewhere so I guess we will wait for them to respond. Thank you for your effort and time................Dan

[GrumpyEd]

Mine has most of the markers on CC listing, no markers that match the one in the thread.
The ones going up from his back are very strong.
No sign of that big gouge on the G.

Keep your eye out for listings for the DDO on ebay, if one of them has that gouge on the G it'll be easy to see. That would nail it.

[jfines69]

That pretty much narrows it down, if it's not the CC 002 then I don't have a clue to which one it could be, unless it is a new one or something. GumpyEd and mustbebob said they have samples somewhere so I guess we will wait for them to respond. Thank you for your effort and time................Dan
Glad I could help!!!

[jfines69]

Mine has most of the markers on CC listing, no markers that match the one in the thread.
The ones going up from his back are very strong.
No sign of that big gouge on the G.

Keep your eye out for listings for the DDO on ebay, if one of them has that gouge on the G it'll be easy to see. That would nail it.
Thanks Ed... This is one of the weirdest DDO/RPM combos I have seen (Not that I have seen a lot) That die had to have lasted a really long time!!!

[dinkyblue]

Well what do we do now?..................Dan

[jfines69]

Well what do we do now?..................Dan
From what everyone can tell yours is the DDO-002/RPM-013... Yours should be a VLDS or even later... If there is a later :LOL_Hair:

[GrumpyEd]

Well what do we do now?..................Dan

I would put it in a flip as 1DO-002/1MM-013 with a question mark.

Then keep an eye on listings for 002 and if you see that marker on the G then cross off the question mark.

002s don't show up often for sale but I'd also look at any pics of ones slabbed as die-1 because there are a lot more of them and I think the die-1 was listed longer than die-2 so TPGs were slabbing the 02s as 01s until the 02s were noticed.
So look at listings for both and see if any have that easy to see marker on G.

[dinkyblue]

That sounds good to me, that's what it will be then DDO-002/RPM-013 -VLDS or later ?. I'll put it away and keep and eye out for one like it. Thank Jim, and GrumyEd for helping.............Dan