Coppercoins Listing 1MM-045 & 1MM-046 Same

[rlmillerjr]

Hi Folks, hope all are doing well this Sunday Evening, as I was looking through the RPM's on Coppercoins.com for 1958-D, I noticed that some of the die markers match and the MM looks the same on 1MM-045 and 1MM-046. I think they are the same dies, the die scratches by the 1 in the date and by RTY in LIBERTY look the same as well as the die scratched going from the E on ONE to the U in UNUM. I am curious which listing will be deleted or not. Thanks for your input folks!

[jfines69]

That is interesting... I did a quick overlay of 046 over 045 and to me 046 looks to be rotated slightly CCW... Bob will need to take a good look at these... If Bob wishes I can do overlays of the die abrasions also... They are very similar in their appearance but I am not 100% sure they are the same??? It will take a bit of time to figure this one out... Very good catch!!!

[TPring]

Good Eye -- That can be confusing. Looks [to me] like the same second photo was used for both because of the dot above the '9'.

The flow lines(?) are different for the two coins in the first pics [NW-to-SE vs. NE-to-SW].

CC045 (http://coppercoins.com/lincoln/diestate.php?date=1958&die_id=1958d1mm045&die_state=mds), CC046 (http://coppercoins.com/lincoln/diestate.php?date=1958&die_id=1958d1mm046&die_state=mds)

[mustbebob]

I don't own either one of them so I can not compare them. There are indeed some similar die scratches. In addition, there are some added abrasions. Jim...feel free to overlay them how you see fit. I will leave everything as it is on coppercoins until I find something out. If they are the same, I will remove 1MM-046.

[jfines69]

With permission from Copper Coins (Thanks Bob) I did overlays of the date and MM, abrasions and die dot at the date, abrasions around BERTY and the neck and at the E of ONE... Very interesting outcome which could be differences in the light angle and direction for the abrasions... The MM of CCs 046 looks slightly west and rotated CCW http://www.coppercoins.com/lincoln/diestate.php?date=1958&die_id=1958d1mm046&die_state=mds compared to CCs 045 http://www.coppercoins.com/lincoln/diestate.php?date=1958&die_id=1958d1mm045&die_state=mds but I also noticed that the split in the lower serifs do not appear to be the same angle... The splits in the upper serifs look to be in slightly different positions and as TPring pointed out the die flow lines are in different directions most noteably around the date/MM and both coins appear to be the same die state... As for the markers they are very similar but when i align the abrasions the other devices become blury and when I align the other devices the abrasions become blurry... I also noticed that the abrasion just behind Abes neck (runs NNW to SSE) is at a slightly different angle between the 2 coins... In my opinion these are 2 different RPMs... The final decision will have to be finalized by Bob and/or the other pros!!!

[rlmillerjr]

With permission from Copper Coins (Thanks Bob) I did overlays of the date and MM, abrasions and die dot at the date, abrasions around BERTY and the neck and at the E of ONE... Very interesting outcome which could be differences in the light angle and direction for the abrasions... The MM of CCs 046 looks slightly west and rotated CCW http://www.coppercoins.com/lincoln/diestate.php?date=1958&die_id=1958d1mm046&die_state=mds compared to CCs 045 http://www.coppercoins.com/lincoln/diestate.php?date=1958&die_id=1958d1mm045&die_state=mds but I also noticed that the split in the lower serifs do not appear to be the same angle... The splits in the upper serifs look to be in slightly different positions and as TPring pointed out the die flow lines are in different directions most noteably around the date/MM and both coins appear to be the same die state... As for the markers they are very similar but when i align the abrasions the other devices become blury and when I align the other devices the abrasions become blurry... I also noticed that the abrasion just behind Abes neck (runs NNW to SSE) is at a slightly different angle between the 2 coins... In my opinion these are 2 different RPMs... The final decision will have to be finalized by Bob and/or the other pros!!!

Nice Job! To me they are so close in the dies scratches, I just can't seem to fathom how two different dies can be so similar like that, what are the odds they would be so close.. Anyhow, thanks a bunch folks, great work!!!

[rlmillerjr]

Wanna know whats even scarier, 1MM-039 has some interesting die scratches that go from the chin to the bottom of the one in the date, this gives me the chills, hehehe... its the fourth picture http://www.coppercoins.com/lincoln/diestate.php?date=1958&die_id=1958d1mm039&die_state=lds

[mustbebob]

It wouldn't surprise me if they are all the same die. Jim...Could you do an overlay with 1MM-039 also? What concerns me is the multiple cases of the die being abraded within the same die state. I guess when you are doing so many additions to the site as I was during that time frame, I may have missed some easy ones. rlmillerjr...Thanks for keeping us on our toes! I really do appreciate you bringing this stuff to our attention.

[GrumpyEd]

Good Eye -- That can be confusing. Looks [to me] like the same second photo was used for both because of the dot above the '9'.

The flow lines(?) are different for the two coins in the first pics [NW-to-SE vs. NE-to-SW].

CC045 (http://coppercoins.com/lincoln/diestate.php?date=1958&die_id=1958d1mm045&die_state=mds), CC046 (http://coppercoins.com/lincoln/diestate.php?date=1958&die_id=1958d1mm046&die_state=mds)




I think all 3 have a die dot above the 9 that might match.
Not the same photo/coin, I think they all have the dot and probably the chin lines too so possibly they are the same die as long as it really lines up.

[centMD]

John Shields has examples which he was able to match all 3 coins based on markers and mint mark position. These listings are something he brought up in conversation with me before and he even had me note in my master list that 1MM-039, 1MM-045, and 1MM-046 are all the same coin. Additionally, 1958D 1MM-030 and 1MM-055 are also duplicate listings for each other, again credit to John on this one.

Dan

http://coppercoins.com/lincoln/diestate.php?date=1958&die_id=1958d1mm030&die_state=lds

http://coppercoins.com/lincoln/diestate.php?date=1958&die_id=1958d1mm055&die_state=mds

[jfines69]

It wouldn't surprise me if they are all the same die. Jim...Could you do an overlay with 1MM-039 also? What concerns me is the multiple cases of the die being abraded within the same die state. I guess when you are doing so many additions to the site as I was during that time frame, I may have missed some easy ones. rlmillerjr...Thanks for keeping us on our toes! I really do appreciate you bringing this stuff to our attention.
Yes I will Bob... Give me a bit!!!

[makecents]

I know it would have nothing to do with the abrasions and the mm was hand punched but could some other markers be due to the fact that this is one of the dies that falls under Master Die Doubling?

[jfines69]

With permission from Copper Coins (Thanks Bob) I have completed the overlays of 039 http://www.coppercoins.com/lincoln/diestate.php?date=1958&die_id=1958d1mm039&die_state=lds over 045 http://www.coppercoins.com/lincoln/diestate.php?date=1958&die_id=1958d1mm045&die_state=mds and 046 http://www.coppercoins.com/lincoln/diestate.php?date=1958&die_id=1958d1mm046&die_state=mds 039 is no doubt a match to 045... The first 2 overlays are 039 over 045... I still think that 046 is a different die... On the next 2 overlays, date/MM, I put 039 over 046... When the date and jacket are aligned the MM for 046 shows up slightly west and rotated CCW (the shadow)... When the MM is aligned the jacket and date are not ( notice the position of the 8s lower west curve)... On the last 2 overlays when the abrasions running NNW from the 1 are aligned the date and and jacket area become blurred and out of alignment... When the date and jacket are aligned then the markers become blurred and out of alignment... As a final note I noticed that on 046 there is a chip on the top east loop of the B in LIBERTY that does not show on 039 (LDS) and 045 (MDS)!!!

[mustbebob]

Great work Jim. Please give me a while to get to this one as I am pretty busy right now. I really need to look over everything and see which ones I will delete. I really appreciate everyone's input. You folks are awesome!

[Petespockets55]

Is # 55 just an earlier die stage of # 30?

[VAB2013]

Very nice work rlmillerjr, Jim and Bob! I'm still trying to figure out who is on first, but it appears a decision has been made and Bob is going to fix everything! Great job on the overlays Jim!

[jfines69]

Is # 55 just an earlier die stage of # 30?

:sign10::sign10:

[jfines69]

Great work Jim. Please give me a while to get to this one as I am pretty busy right now. I really need to look over everything and see which ones I will delete. I really appreciate everyone's input. You folks are awesome!
Looking forward to what these turn out to be!!!

[VAB2013]

Jim, I think Cliff was being serious... you two should be neighbors, you'd have a lot of fun!

[jfines69]

Very nice work rlmillerjr, Jim and Bob! I'm still trying to figure out who is on first, but it appears a decision has been made and Bob is going to fix everything! Great job on the overlays Jim!
I don't know who's on first :LOL_Hair: Thanks Vivien... Looks like Bob has his work cut out for him on these!!!

[VAB2013]

I don't know who's on first :LOL_Hair: Thanks Vivien... Looks like Bob has his work cut out for him on these!!!

Okay, makes me feel a bit better about being confused. We shall wait for Bob to come back to us with an update!

[rlmillerjr]

It wouldn't surprise me if they are all the same die. Jim...Could you do an overlay with 1MM-039 also? What concerns me is the multiple cases of the die being abraded within the same die state. I guess when you are doing so many additions to the site as I was during that time frame, I may have missed some easy ones. rlmillerjr...Thanks for keeping us on our toes! I really do appreciate you bringing this stuff to our attention.

Well I want to thank you for all your hard work, I do like coppercoins very much!!!!