1957D RPM and Clash

[AstroRaider]

Now that I am retired, I am going through my "stack" of Lincolns (etc) that I have set aside for further study.

From an uncirculated roll of 1957D, I found a few of these.

There is an obverse clash, with the crossbar of the "T" in CENT to the left of the date, and there is a minor RPM (I am not sure which one).

http://www.lincolncentforum.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=127858&stc=1 http://www.lincolncentforum.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=127859&stc=1

Thanks for any comments...
Allan (AstroRaider) White

[TPring]

Nice coin and pics. Looks like it might be the RPM-009 (http://www.varietyvista.com/02a%20LC%20RPMs%20Vol%201/1957DRPM009.htm).

That is the only one that is extremely tight [touching the Mason-Dixon Line].


Any die chips?

[AstroRaider]

NO, no die chips, so I am confused which one this is. Maybe a new minor RPM.

[makecents]

Nice looking clash and RPM!! I would think with those splits it would be listable. TPring is tearing up the RPM's, so you may want to take another look at 009. Maybe a different die stage and does not have the chips. It would be cool if it were a new listing though!

[makecents]

After looking at it again, your mm sets further east the the 009.

[makecents]

Check out 016. It even shows the clash.I'm pretty sure I see the long vertical die scratch between the 1 and 9 too . http://www.coppercoins.com/lincoln/diestate.php?date=1957&die_id=1957d1mm016&die_state=lds (http://www.coppercoins.com/lincoln/diestate.php?date=1957&die_id=1957d1mm016&die_state=lds)

[AstroRaider]

Yes, it is definitely the 1957D-1MM-016. All of the markers match. I have two of them (both BU). Thanks...

[makecents]

Yes, it is definitely the 1957D-1MM-016. All of the markers match. I have two of them (both BU). Thanks...Very nice finds!! Congrats on two nice beauties!

On a heavier note, I was sorry to hear Stephen Hawking passed. I noticed your quote at the bottom of your page.

[jfines69]

Nice coin and pics. Looks like it might be the RPM-009 (http://www.varietyvista.com/02a%20LC%20RPMs%20Vol%201/1957DRPM009.htm).

That is the only one that is extremely tight [touching the Mason-Dixon Line].


Any die chips?
That would have been a good one to find... Compared to Allens the MM on VVs 009 http://www.varietyvista.com/02a%20LC%20RPMs%20Vol%201/1957DRPM009.htm is to far west... Really close on the north south tho... Also notice the angles of the splits are different... Hope that helps a little!!!

[jfines69]

Nice find Allen... This is a tough one... There are a few on CC really close in appearance and location as well as markers... To me it doesn't look like 016 http://www.coppercoins.com/lincoln/diestate.php?date=1957&die_id=1957d1mm016&die_state=lds notice the difference in the location and angle of the clash between 1 and the jacket... 016s clash touches the 1 and is rotated CW slightly... On yours the clash does not appear to touch the1 and is nearly horizontal... Comparing yours with CCs 024 http://www.coppercoins.com/lincoln/diestate.php?date=1957&die_id=1957d1mm024&die_state=lds I think that is what you have... Notice the clash also there is a die abrasion between the top of the 95 that is stronger on yours than on CCs LDS sample (Yours appears to be MDS)... Also notice on the NE corner of the 1 is a die chip on CCs sample that appears to be there on yours... A little hard to tell for sure due to the glare on your 1 but it does appear to be there!!!

[VAB2013]

Congrats AstroRaider! Two BU's of this nice RPM and die clash is awesome!

[makecents]

Wow!! The master strikes again!! Thanks Jim!:)

[AstroRaider]

My two examples match ALL the markers of both 016 and 024 with the following exceptions...

My examples do not have the die scratches on the coat of the jacket (as in 016).

My examples have the die chip on the "1" in the date (as in 024).

Yet, ALL the other markers match including the chip and scratches on the reverse.

Can this be the same coin, only different die states? Or, can it have two obverses?

[jfines69]

My two examples match ALL the markers of both 016 and 024 with the following exceptions...

My examples do not have the die scratches on the coat of the jacket (as in 016).

My examples have the die chip on the "1" in the date (as in 024).

Yet, ALL the other markers match including the chip and scratches on the reverse.

Can this be the same coin, only different die states? Or, can it have two obverses?
I do not believe 016 and 024 are the same... Notice the clash between the 1 and jacket... 016 is touching the 1 and rotated slightly CW and 024 is nearly horizontal (maybe slightly CCW) and does not touch the 1... Both coins are LDS according to CC... The rev die could be the same on both coins... Can you post images of the other markers??? That would help!!!

[AstroRaider]

Attached are 6 photos of die markers. Note: these are tough to shoot. I wanted to do a couple of others, but I had too much trouble with lighting and angle, but maybe I can get those as well if needed.

Note: while three of the shots support 024, some of the reverse shots support 016.

http://www.lincolncentforum.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=127865&stc=1http://www.lincolncentforum.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=127866&stc=1http://www.lincolncentforum.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=127867&stc=1http://www.lincolncentforum.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=127869&stc=1http://www.lincolncentforum.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=127870&stc=1http://www.lincolncentforum.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=127871&stc=1

[jfines69]

If you do not mind I would like to download your date/MM image and do some overlays!!!

[AstroRaider]

Please, go ahead...

[makecents]

Attached are 6 photos of die markers. Note: these are tough to shoot. I wanted to do a couple of others, but I had too much trouble with lighting and angle, but maybe I can get those as well if needed.

Note: while three of the shots support 024, some of the reverse shots support 016.

http://www.lincolncentforum.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=127865&stc=1http://www.lincolncentforum.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=127866&stc=1http://www.lincolncentforum.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=127867&stc=1http://www.lincolncentforum.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=127869&stc=1http://www.lincolncentforum.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=127870&stc=1http://www.lincolncentforum.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=127871&stc=1Very nice pics! the BU coins are nice to look at but a bugger to get good pics of for sure. Sorry for misleading this morning but you have the MAN checking things out for you now!

[jfines69]

Please, go ahead...
I downloaded your date/MM image and shall post the overlay today... Thanks!!!

[jfines69]

With permission from Copper Coins (Thank You Bob) I did a couple overlays with CCs 016 http://www.coppercoins.com/lincoln/diestate.php?date=1957&die_id=1957d1mm016&die_state=lds and 024 http://www.coppercoins.com/lincoln/diestate.php?date=1957&die_id=1957d1mm024&die_state=lds On 016 when I aligned the MM of your coin the date, rim, jacket and clash mark were out of alignment... When I aligned just the clash marks the difference was even more apparent... When doing the overlay of CCs 024 the date and MM aligned perfectly... With the clash aligned the visible portion of the date, MM and jacket all aligned also... While CCs RPMs 016 and 024 are extremely close in placement and appearance they different dies... They also appear to have the same rev dies as the marker images, with the die chip and abrasions around the west stalk and C, between the 2 line up... To me yours is CCs 024... Hope that helps... If need be we can have Bob (MustbeBob) come take a look for confirmation either way!!!

[AstroRaider]

Wow, thanks for the detailed investigation!

I am convinced the coin is 1957D-1MM-024. It "may" share the reverse with 1957D-1MM-016.

Good work!

Allan

[makecents]

With permission from Copper Coins (Thank You Bob) I did a couple overlays with CCs 016 http://www.coppercoins.com/lincoln/diestate.php?date=1957&die_id=1957d1mm016&die_state=lds and 024 http://www.coppercoins.com/lincoln/diestate.php?date=1957&die_id=1957d1mm024&die_state=lds On 016 when I aligned the MM of your coin the date, rim, jacket and clash mark were out of alignment... When I aligned just the clash marks the difference was even more apparent... When doing the overlay of CCs 024 the date and MM aligned perfectly... With the clash aligned the visible portion of the date, MM and jacket all aligned also... While CCs RPMs 016 and 024 are extremely close in placement and appearance they different dies... They also appear to have the same rev dies as the marker images, with the die chip and abrasions around the west stalk and C, between the 2 line up... To me yours is CCs 024... Hope that helps... If need be we can have Bob (MustbeBob) come take a look for confirmation either way!!!Fantastic work Jim!! Thanks for coming to the rescue once again!

[VAB2013]

Congrats AstroRaider, very nice RPM! Awesome job on the overlays Jim! Great job with your photos too AstroRaider!

[jfines69]

Thanks ya'll... Glad I could help... There is no doubt in my mind that the rev dies are the same but that decision would be left to the pros for confirmation!!!