View Full Version : Error Die Deterior. | 1971 P deterioration comparison
makecents
01-15-2019, 05:41 PM
Alrighty then. At Jim's request and with Derrel's (Dearing) permission to use his pics, I did a side by side comparison with one of the two coins I found similar to his. The other coin was definitely not the same die, so I only posted the one that had a chance and I feel could be the same die. I wanted to post them without marking them up yet to give you an unbias look at them so I could get your take. My coin has extreme circulation that has smoothed the coin over but feel it is a later die stage of the same coin as Dearing's. Because of this I also believe that the die lost whatever caused this anomaly over the life of the die, possibly compressing or filling the voids that were obviously in the die in its early stages. Let me know if you need any other pics of my coin.
Thanks for looking, Jon.
Petespockets55
01-15-2019, 05:50 PM
Nice job on the images and comparison collages.
They do have a lot of similar "bubbling" around the edges of the devices. And the top of the 7 and other devices look very similar.
But I feel like I'm lacking the expertise to say if they are the same or not.
I'm interested to see what others have to say.
makecents
01-15-2019, 06:39 PM
Nice job on the images and comparison collages.
They do have a lot of similar "bubbling" around the edges of the devices. And the top of the 7 and other devices look very similar.
But I feel like I'm lacking the expertise to say if they are the same or not.
I'm interested to see what others have to say.Thanks Cliff! Me too!! I'm in the "not expertise" camp but you got more than me!!:) I'm just along for the ride!
jfines69
01-21-2019, 03:19 AM
Sorry for the delay in responding... I totally zoned out on this one... I even had it marked so I could come back to the thread :LOL_Hair: We would need other markers to decide if yours is the same die or not... To me Derrels' coin would be the later die stage??? Jons' coin still has ample design showing on the back of the head and Abes' throat (adams apple) and those areas on Derrels' are completely covered with die dots/pitting... If on Jons' coin the die dots/pitting were worn away thru die wear, struck thru or polished away there would be no details showing in that area... Also on Derrels' obv pic the section around IN GOD shows signs of die wear that ramp effect from the field up toward the rim and Jons' looks to be much flatter???
makecents
01-21-2019, 03:54 AM
Sorry for the delay in responding... I totally zoned out on this one... I even had it marked so I could come back to the thread :LOL_Hair: We would need other markers to decide if yours is the same die or not... To me Derrels' coin would be the later die stage??? Jons' coin still has ample design showing on the back of the head and Abes' throat (adams apple) and those areas on Derrels' are completely covered with die dots/pitting... If on Jons' coin the die dots/pitting were worn away thru die wear, struck thru or polished away there would be no details showing in that area... Also on Derrels' obv pic the section around IN GOD shows signs of die wear that ramp effect from the field up toward the rim and Jons' looks to be much flatter???Thanks for checking it out Jim!! I love to make notes for myself as reminders but then find I can't figure out what I did with the note....
After looking at this again this morning, I'm not sure. I'll try and get you some better pics of mine this evening. I didn't realize how whited out these were. I messed with the coloring, trying to get the flow lines to stand out but I think I washed them away!
GrumpyEd
01-21-2019, 04:05 AM
This still drives me crazy that I see no other similar looking deterioration with those sharp bumps on 71 or other dates and it is so much like the 71 FS 030.7, not in the exact bumps but in the way it looks and the areas it shows in. When I first saw that 030.7 I wondered if an example existed without (before) the doubling on TY. It's interesting if it could be an earlier stage before the TY doubling showed. The mouth look similar.
jfines69
01-21-2019, 12:48 PM
Thanks for checking it out Jim!! I love to make notes for myself as reminders but then find I can't figure out what I did with the note....
After looking at this again this morning, I'm not sure. I'll try and get you some better pics of mine this evening. I didn't realize how whited out these were. I messed with the coloring, trying to get the flow lines to stand out but I think I washed them away!
The washed out look may be why things don't look correct to match up???
makecents
01-21-2019, 04:17 PM
This still drives me crazy that I see no other similar looking deterioration with those sharp bumps on 71 or other dates and it is so much like the 71 FS 030.7, not in the exact bumps but in the way it looks and the areas it shows in. When I first saw that 030.7 I wondered if an example existed without (before) the doubling on TY. It's interesting if it could be an earlier stage before the TY doubling showed. The mouth look similar.It's odd you say that. Compare the reverse of the PSGS example against the pic I've marked up of Dearing's.
PCGS Link (https://www.pcgs.com/coinfacts/coin/1971-1c-fs-102-030-7-rd/38006)
makecents
01-21-2019, 04:24 PM
The washed out look may be why things don't look correct to match up???I tried to get some better pics and did not do so well. I have three Phillies and one Denver now. I'll hold on to them and keep an eye out for some in better condition. Thanks for checking it out though!!:)
jfines69
01-22-2019, 01:44 PM
I tried to get some better pics and did not do so well. I have three Phillies and one Denver now. I'll hold on to them and keep an eye out for some in better condition. Thanks for checking it out though!!:)
3 Ps and 1 D??? Interesting... If memory serves me correct Philly was the die maker for all dies at one time but I do not remember when that ceased??? I will have to do some research to find out or hopefully Edcyclopedia of Coins will chime back in 1st with the answer!!!
jfines69
01-22-2019, 02:20 PM
That is strange... They both look like PSD to me tho??? The edges are raised indicating that occurred after strike... Since there was no pressure surrounding the area during the damaging occurrence the edges were allowed to flow upward... I hope that makes sense???
VAB2013
01-22-2019, 09:02 PM
It's odd you say that. Compare the reverse of the PSGS example against the pic I've marked up of Dearing's.
PCGS Link (https://www.pcgs.com/coinfacts/coin/1971-1c-fs-102-030-7-rd/38006)
Jon, what you are pointing out on the reverse of the PCGS link is the same on all three of the PCGS example tabs (Brown, Red and Brown, and Red) of the FS-102 DD. It also looks the same on this one for sale at Great Collections https://www.greatcollections.com/Coin/526248/1971-Lincoln-Cent-FS-102-0307-PCGS-MS-66-RD
I didn't see the FS-102 on any of the attribution sites but the Cherypickers' Guide 5th Edition Volume 1 has it on page 144. The description says doubling at the top of the RTY and the 97 of the date. It also says that CONECA and other variety specialists no longer consider it to be a doubled die but rather die fatigue, etc. but it was listed in the CPG because it was the opinion of Fivaz and Stanton that the doubling is strong enough to have character and consider it to be a very interesting variety and many specialists consider it collectible.
So...do you think that Derrel's might be a FS-102? If it happens to be then that might shine a new light on your investigation.
Sorry I got so wrapped up in details Jon... very nice work and pics on this study you are doing!
GrumpyEd
01-23-2019, 02:32 AM
If memory serves me correct Philly was the die maker for all dies at one time but I do not remember when that ceased???
I think those dies were all made in the P mint at that time.
GrumpyEd
01-23-2019, 02:38 AM
So...do you think that Derrel's might be a FS-102? If it happens to be then that might shine a new light on your investigation.
That was what I mentioned before, if it is an example of the same die before the doubling on the TY showed up that further proves the experts were right (which is sort of beyond questioning).
I have a 65 RED in an ANACs slab. I could dig it out and compare if there is a marker that lasted long enough if it really was the same die and later grew the doubling over TY.
I've never seen an example where the doubling was just starting to show, the one I have and all examples I have seen are exactly like the one in the CPG with the doubling over TY and 97.
jfines69
01-23-2019, 12:35 PM
I think those dies were all made in the P mint at that time.
Thanks Ed... You going to dig out your samples of the FS102???
GrumpyEd
01-23-2019, 01:50 PM
Thanks Ed... You going to dig out your samples of the FS102???
If there is any good marker I'll post if I can match it.
makecents
01-23-2019, 02:34 PM
That is strange... They both look like PSD to me tho??? The edges are raised indicating that occurred after strike... Since there was no pressure surrounding the area during the damaging occurrence the edges were allowed to flow upward... I hope that makes sense???So with multiple examples in plastic, with the same reverse anomaly at the northwest end of the memorial, do you think maybe this could have been an issue with one working die and the obverse being the same on even more coins, excluding the reverse sometimes, maybe a working hub with issues? I'm really having an issue wrapping my head around this. All this being said, the variety that Ed is referring to is possibly just one die that just happened to be paired with this particular reverse and the bumps on the obverse being as I said, further up the line in a working hub pumping out more numbers of those. I may have just confused you all but that's where I'm at right now.
makecents
01-23-2019, 02:41 PM
Jon, what you are pointing out on the reverse of the PCGS link is the same on all three of the PCGS example tabs (Brown, Red and Brown, and Red) of the FS-102 DD. It also looks the same on this one for sale at Great Collections https://www.greatcollections.com/Coin/526248/1971-Lincoln-Cent-FS-102-0307-PCGS-MS-66-RD
I didn't see the FS-102 on any of the attribution sites but the Cherypickers' Guide 5th Edition Volume 1 has it on page 144. The description says doubling at the top of the RTY and the 97 of the date. It also says that CONECA and other variety specialists no longer consider it to be a doubled die but rather die fatigue, etc. but it was listed in the CPG because it was the opinion of Fivaz and Stanton that the doubling is strong enough to have character and consider it to be a very interesting variety and many specialists consider it collectible.
So...do you think that Derrel's might be a FS-102? If it happens to be then that might shine a new light on your investigation.
Sorry I got so wrapped up in details Jon... very nice work and pics on this study you are doing!Thanks for doing all of that digging Viv!! I'm really not sure at this point but leads me to think it may be as Ed was saying, possibly an earlier die stage of that variety. I'm going to keep an eye open for any with the bumps because I think that may be a working hub issue that shows on more coins than just the variety in question. Hopefully I can run across some better examples of the obverse bumps anomaly.
GrumpyEd
01-23-2019, 04:29 PM
Maybe the only way to answer it is if there is some good obv marker on one with the doubling and the one in this thread without the doubling.
makecents
01-23-2019, 07:15 PM
Maybe the only way to answer it is if there is some good obv marker on one with the doubling and the one in this thread without the doubling.Yes sir, I would have to agree.
GrumpyEd
01-24-2019, 01:36 AM
Well I looked at my example. It does have that very distinct odd piece of roof on the reverse exactly like the PCGS examples.
But, on the obv, the mouth seems to have less deterioration that the one in this thread and it has a hair crack from the W of WE to the back of the ear.
I'm guessing, multiple reverses might have that marker and the coin in thread is probably a different obv or how could it have more deterioration in the mouth but not the doubling on TY or 97 or the hair crack (assuming the one in this thread has no hair crack).
jfines69
01-24-2019, 02:50 AM
If there is any good marker I'll post if I can match it.
Cool... Thanks!!!
jfines69
01-24-2019, 03:22 AM
The multiple bumps looks as if the die was bead blasted??? Maybe an attempt to make the die last longer???
Petespockets55
01-24-2019, 08:47 AM
It's odd you say that. Compare the reverse of the PSGS example against the pic I've marked up of Dearing's.
PCGS Link (https://www.pcgs.com/coinfacts/coin/1971-1c-fs-102-030-7-rd/38006)
http://www.lincolncentforum.com/forum/images/styles/Luburox_Blue/attach/jpg.gif Dearing's reverse.jpg (http://www.lincolncentforum.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=138109&d=1548116147) (376.7 KB, 5 views)
Is it my imagination or is the anomaly shorter on the PCGS example?
(Sorry if that question has already been addressed)
VAB2013
01-24-2019, 10:50 AM
Since the 1971 FS-102 (030.7) is not listed on any of the attribution sites, unfortunately there are no known markers published. Maybe it was listed at one time and then de-listed? It would be nice if we had several examples to look at and compare. Jon, do you think it would help to start a new thread asking our members if they have this die? Just in case some of them have missed this topic in your thread?
jfines69
01-24-2019, 12:43 PM
Is it my imagination or is the anomaly shorter on the PCGS example?
(Sorry if that question has already been addressed)
I think it does also but on Dearings there is some damage at the corner of the building so that may be causing a visual distortion in his pic??? His also appears to wrap around the corner???
jfines69
01-24-2019, 12:46 PM
Since the 1971 FS-102 (030.7) is not listed on any of the attribution sites, unfortunately there are no known markers published. Maybe it was listed at one time and then de-listed? It would be nice if we had several examples to look at and compare. Jon, do you think it would help to start a new thread asking our members if they have this die? Just in case some of them have missed this topic in your thread?
The sample images on PCGS should be suitable to identify markers??? When I open the image in a new tab I can zoom way in and the detail is still sharp!!!
jfines69
01-24-2019, 01:07 PM
So with multiple examples in plastic, with the same reverse anomaly at the northwest end of the memorial, do you think maybe this could have been an issue with one working die and the obverse being the same on even more coins, excluding the reverse sometimes, maybe a working hub with issues? I'm really having an issue wrapping my head around this. All this being said, the variety that Ed is referring to is possibly just one die that just happened to be paired with this particular reverse and the bumps on the obverse being as I said, further up the line in a working hub pumping out more numbers of those. I may have just confused you all but that's where I'm at right now.
To me the rev anomaly looks like PSD from a coin counter or something along that line??? The PCGS coin is similar to Dearings but does not wrap around the corner and is much thinner??? The dots all over the coins could be from a working hub and that could explain why they are on multiple dies including a once DDO!!!
makecents
01-24-2019, 06:00 PM
Is it my imagination or is the anomaly shorter on the PCGS example?
(Sorry if that question has already been addressed)
I could be wrong but I think there are differences in die states too as far as how drastic it is. Derrel (Dearing), is trying to find his examples to send me. He had several that may be different die states.
makecents
01-24-2019, 06:04 PM
Since the 1971 FS-102 (030.7) is not listed on any of the attribution sites, unfortunately there are no known markers published. Maybe it was listed at one time and then de-listed? It would be nice if we had several examples to look at and compare. Jon, do you think it would help to start a new thread asking our members if they have this die? Just in case some of them have missed this topic in your thread?That's not a bad idea even though Jim is right about being able to zoom in on the PCGS examples very well. I'm waiting to see if Derrel can find his examples to send to me. That may shed some light on this hopefully.
makecents
01-24-2019, 06:07 PM
To me the rev anomaly looks like PSD from a coin counter or something along that line??? The PCGS coin is similar to Dearings but does not wrap around the corner and is much thinner??? The dots all over the coins could be from a working hub and that could explain why they are on multiple dies including a once DDO!!!Thanks Jim for the help on this one, it's been messing with me and I think maybe Ed too!:) Hopefully we can get some answers with more examples that may come down the line.
GrumpyEd
01-24-2019, 06:55 PM
The reverse marker on my FS-102 definitely does not go around the building corner, it sharply ends.
Like Jim said on Dearings coin it sort of looks like something dragged around the corner.
Still, you never know without seeing in hand. Sort of like the those humpback 1973 cents, you see one and think it's coin damage but then more show up and rethink it. And like those 73 humpbacks it can be something odd going on that year that shows up on multiple dies and not exactly the same.
In both cases, (the 73 humpbacks and 71s with this odd deterioration) it seems like the mint had some die stock that had some defect or was hardened wrong and made multiple dies that failed in odd ways.
makecents
01-25-2019, 03:21 AM
The reverse marker on my FS-102 definitely does not go around the building corner, it sharply ends.
Like Jim said on Dearings coin it sort of looks like something dragged around the corner.
Still, you never know without seeing in hand. Sort of like the those humpback 1973 cents, you see one and think it's coin damage but then more show up and rethink it. And like those 73 humpbacks it can be something odd going on that year that shows up on multiple dies and not exactly the same.
In both cases, (the 73 humpbacks and 71s with this odd deterioration) it seems like the mint had some die stock that had some defect or was hardened wrong and made multiple dies that failed in odd ways.I'm sure you guys are right about there being some PSD on the one Dearing example but am hoping that the consistent anomaly with your variety is hiding in there too.
I had forgotten until Derrel reminded me, that he had several examples too, that lessened in bumps as he went through them. It would be cool to look at all of these at the same time to be able to compare flow lines,abrasions and possible progression of the same die.
With what you said regarding the 73's, I've also noticed on these, there being something going on it bay 3 on several examples I've checked out. Not abrasions from a possible clash but something else, maybe also related to the bumps. That's a good point about there having been something wrong with the die stock used at the time. That would take out the concept of a particular die or hub causing the problem, it could just be in several of them.
Thanks once again Ed, you always think things through and have several valid takes on the same situation. You make me see things in a totally different light, which is good, because I need help occasionally, where I may have my blinders on!!:)
jfines69
01-25-2019, 04:02 AM
I could be wrong but I think there are differences in die states too as far as how drastic it is. Derrel (Dearing), is trying to find his examples to send me. He had several that may be different die states.
This will be a great help!!!
jfines69
01-25-2019, 04:06 AM
I hope Derrel can find his coins!!!
makecents
10-01-2019, 04:06 PM
Sheila's example. (http://www.lincolncentforum.com/forum/showthread.php?46136-1971-looks-like-it%E2%80%99s-Doubled-on-the-roof)