2019P DDO better than the last two minors

[VAB2013]

Well, I think this is a new one... it's not the same as the other (http://www.lincolncentforum.com/forum/showthread.php?45188-2019P-Minor-DDO-Date&highlight=2019) two (http://www.lincolncentforum.com/forum/showthread.php?45010-2019P-with-some-doubling-at-Date-and-Liberty&highlight=2019) minors I found, it doesn't match any of the Coppercoins' listings. Does anybody recall seeing this one posted here yet?

Sorry the pics are LED purple, I just didn't have the energy to fight the lights and the Ray System battery is charging. I was searching one more customer roll before turning in and was surprised to find this one :tinysmile_sleep_t:

No markers... no die cracks except "maybe" the starting of a die crack on the top left Shield.

Thanks very much for taking a look and giving me some feedback!

[mustbebob]

Looks good to me Viv. I might have to start looking at 2019 coins (whenever I get one). Here we are in May, and I have only seen one 2019D cent this year.

[VAB2013]

Looks good to me Viv. I might have to start looking at 2019 coins (whenever I get one). Here we are in May, and I have only seen one 2019D cent this year.

Thank you very much Bob for taking a look and confirming! Bob, a bunch of minors are showing up and they just arrived in Alabama so they must be headed South to your location - just in time for you to find "the Major"!

[uglycent]

The 2 really stands out on this one. The minor one had ogmented 0's. This one has notching as close as can be on class 9 DDO's

[VAB2013]

The 2 really stands out on this one. The minor one had ogmented 0's. This one has notching as close as can be on class 9 DDO's

Thank you very much Anthony! I'm trying to get some photo practice in on this one - dang... it's really great to hear from you! Hope all continues to go well and get better! We want you back full-swing!!!

[VAB2013]

Here are some Ray System photos I have been working on with this find. The date photo turned out well I think because that area of the coin has less surface disturbance. More disturbance makes lighting and focusing more difficult! Now... to change lenses and work on some full coin shots! I'm really have a blast! Thank you Ray!

[joel]

Very nice find and Ray pics Vivien!! They are both very soothing to the eye!! Congrats!!

[mustbebob]

Nicely done Viv!!

[VAB2013]

Very nice find and Ray pics Vivien!! They are both very soothing to the eye!! Congrats!!

Thank you Larry J! The Ray System has added a whole new dimension to searching and finding Lincolns! I am spending a lot of time following Ray's directions to a "T" but in the end, it will not be near as much time as the time I have spent trying over and over to get a decent pic! Especially the shiny ones! Remember when you said you were having dreams/nightmares of split serifs? LOL... I've had similar dreams of blinding Lincolns! :)

[joel]

Thank you Larry J! The Ray System has added a whole new dimension to searching and finding Lincolns! I am spending a lot of time following Ray's directions to a "T" but in the end, it will not be near as much time as the time I have spent trying over and over to get a decent pic! Especially the shiny ones! Remember when you said you were having dreams/nightmares of split serifs? LOL... I've had similar dreams of blinding Lincolns! :)
Did I say that!! I am glad I have such a poor memory!!

[VAB2013]

Nicely done Viv!!

Thank you very much Bob! That really means a lot to me coming from my favorite Pro! I know I'm just getting started but so far I have surprised myself! Ray's help and instructions are so awesome... I'm afraid one day he's gonna start talking a foreign language LOL - but so far I'm understanding! I am hoping after Ray sees these pics he can coach me on on setting changes to help with the surface scratches on these Shields - that is where I'm stuck right now. I did try something that I think it was Chuck Daughtrey said in a thread - or maybe it was his video - about using a white plastic trash bag as a light diffuser. I just tried that with the full coin shots I'm fixing to post, because the paper diffuser was not big enough. With the plastic trash bag I just plopped it over the entire set up and it was cool because I could still get my hands underneath to move the coin around and to focus!

[VAB2013]

Did I say that!! I am glad I have such a poor memory!!

LOL... yes you said that Larry J.! You didn't say how the dream really went but I envisioned split serifs coming at you like crab pinchers!

[VAB2013]

Okay... here are the full coin shots. The problem I'm having with focusing, which I think is because of all of these scratches on the surface, has carried over to these shots too! I betcha Ray has a fix for this! Just waiting to find out what it is! Also, it was the first time I tried the trash bag light diffuser, and I think it has potential - then my battery was getting low so I kinda had to hurry :)

[ray_parkhurst]

Viv...the shots look good. I think the issues you're having are due to diffusion and placement of the lights. Coin lighting has 4 dimensions:

Distance from coin
Clock Position
Angle from horizontal

these 3 dimensions are an alternative coordinate system which precisely defines the light position in space, just like they would be defined in the X,Y,Z coordinate system. It's good to talk in terms of D,C,A rather than X,Y,Z since the D,C,A system is much more appropriate to how lights illuminate coins.

The 4th dimension is the "apparent size" of the light itself. Jansjos are quite small emitters, and by adding diffusion you effectively make them look larger. More diffusion, such as when using the diffuser attached to the lens, can make the lights look downright huge. This is what you probably need in order to get the lighting where you want it to be.

For now, what are your approximate D,C,A coordinates for the pics above?

[VAB2013]

Viv...the shots look good. I think the issues you're having are due to diffusion and placement of the lights. Coin lighting has 4 dimensions:

Distance from coin
Clock Position
Angle from horizontal

these 3 dimensions are an alternative coordinate system which precisely defines the light position in space, just like they would be defined in the X,Y,Z coordinate system. It's good to talk in terms of D,C,A rather than X,Y,Z since the D,C,A system is much more appropriate to how lights illuminate coins.

The 4th dimension is the "apparent size" of the light itself. Jansjos are quite small emitters, and by adding diffusion you effectively make them look larger. More diffusion, such as when using the diffuser attached to the lens, can make the lights look downright huge. This is what you probably need in order to get the lighting where you want it to be.

For now, what are your approximate D,C,A coordinates for the pics above?

Thank you Ray for explaining this!

My D, C, A coordinates for the close ups using the paper diffuser -
Distance from coin - lights touching the diffuser with light shining on the top of the coin (not the bottom like my other mistake)
Clock Position - 10:00 and 2:00
Angle from horizontal - 45 degrees

My D, C, A coordinates for the full shots were blown out of proportion because I was trying the white plastic trash bag -
Distance from coin - not sure but very close, just to the point before I started seeing the plastic bag in the viewer
Clock Position - not sure, because I was seeing the cartwheel effect on the coin so I moved both lights until the light was more equally dispersed and the cartwheel effect went away
Angle from horizontal - still at 45 degrees

The paper diffuser I made from white printer paper is working well on the close up shots and it actually stays on the outside of the lens well even after taking it off and on several times. With close up shots, the lens is about 3" from the coin, the small diffuser is easy to work with. But, with full coin shots the lens is about 7" from the coin so I need a longer diffuser. I tried to make a longer diffuser from paper and couldn't get it to work, it was too long so I trimmed it, it wouldn't stay on the lens so I used several twist ties twisted together and that helped some but as soon as I had to adjust the lights or use my finger to move the coin around it would come off again. That's why I decided to try the white plastic trash bag.

[ray_parkhurst]

Thank you Ray for explaining this!

My D, C, A coordinates for the close ups using the paper diffuser -
Distance from coin - lights touching the diffuser with light shining on the top of the coin (not the bottom like my other mistake)
Clock Position - 10:00 and 2:00
Angle from horizontal - 45 degrees

My D, C, A coordinates for the full shots were blown out of proportion because I was trying the white plastic trash bag -
Distance from coin - not sure but very close, just to the point before I started seeing the plastic bag in the viewer
Clock Position - not sure, because I was seeing the cartwheel effect on the coin so I moved both lights until the light was more equally dispersed and the cartwheel effect went away
Angle from horizontal - still at 45 degrees

The paper diffuser I made from white printer paper is working well on the close up shots and it actually stays on the outside of the lens well even after taking it off and on several times. With close up shots, the lens is about 3" from the coin, the small diffuser is easy to work with. But, with full coin shots the lens is about 7" from the coin so I need a longer diffuser. I tried to make a longer diffuser from paper and couldn't get it to work, it was too long so I trimmed it, it wouldn't stay on the lens so I used several twist ties twisted together and that helped some but as soon as I had to adjust the lights or use my finger to move the coin around it would come off again. That's why I decided to try the white plastic trash bag.

For the closeup shots, try moving the lights farther away from the diffuser. This spreads the light from the Jansjo over more of the diffuser, creating more diffusion. If that's still not enough diffusion you might need to make a bigger diffuser.

Here's a tip...in my experience with the Jansjos, even with diffusers, the best placement for full-coin shots is ~4" to 4-1/2" from the coin. I'm not sure why but this is a sweet spot. You can experiment yourself by keeping the same clock position and angle to horizontal, and moving the lights from close to far, snapping shots at different distances, and then comparing them. I'll bet you'll find ~4" looks best.

[VAB2013]

For the closeup shots, try moving the lights farther away from the diffuser. This spreads the light from the Jansjo over more of the diffuser, creating more diffusion. If that's still not enough diffusion you might need to make a bigger diffuser.

Here's a tip...in my experience with the Jansjos, even with diffusers, the best placement for full-coin shots is ~4" to 4-1/2" from the coin. I'm not sure why but this is a sweet spot. You can experiment yourself by keeping the same clock position and angle to horizontal, and moving the lights from close to far, snapping shots at different distances, and then comparing them. I'll bet you'll find ~4" looks best.

Great tip Ray, thank you so much! With your instructions, it was easy to make the small paper diffuser for close up shots and since it's small it stays on the lens very well. For the larger diffuser I was trying to make it more funnel shaped instead of cylinder shaped and I ran out of paper and scotch tape to tape the paper together. Will get some tomorrow! The thought just hit me to try a coffee filter, but it might be up too high. Okay... back to the drawing board! Thank you for being such a great coach!

[VAB2013]

Okay Ray... larger diffuser made with two coffee filters (looks like a two layer skirt) so that the bottom of it is about 2" above the stage plate. Jansjo's at 2:00 and 10:00 - 4" from the coin, aperture at f11. Only thing is, the bellows is completely closed at this point and I have very little room to focus... weird thing is... it didn't seem to need much focus anyway. Am I on the right track? I feel like I'm doing something wrong since I have virtually no wiggle room to focus!

[makecents]

Very cool find Viv!! Nice little football and the 2 has very nice distortion! You are doing great with the Ray system but like anything new, it just takes time to get used to it. Ray is giving some really great tips, especially on the lighting that I will try to implement. :)

[ray_parkhurst]

Great tip Ray, thank you so much! With your instructions, it was easy to make the small paper diffuser for close up shots and since it's small it stays on the lens very well. For the larger diffuser I was trying to make it more funnel shaped instead of cylinder shaped and I ran out of paper and scotch tape to tape the paper together. Will get some tomorrow! The thought just hit me to try a coffee filter, but it might be up too high. Okay... back to the drawing board! Thank you for being such a great coach!

Viv, I'm not sure you're making the diffuser per instructions, or else my instructions may be wrong. The diffuser should be flat, not cylinder-shaped. Just a simple paper circle with a hole in the middle.

[VAB2013]

Viv, I'm not sure you're making the diffuser per instructions, or else my instructions may be wrong. The diffuser should be flat, not cylinder-shaped. Just a simple paper circle with a hole in the middle.

I'm not sure either Ray but what I have made is like this -link to diy camera diffuser (https://www.thephoblographer.com/2018/11/15/diy-diffuser-macro-photography/)

Also, I just thought of something. My desk top is glass (see through, not glass on top of wood, etc.) Could this cause a problem? Not sure if some light is bouncing around off the glass? I have a large black gaming mouse pad that I could put under the camera set up and lights that would eliminate glass anywhere close to the camera and lights.

[VAB2013]

Very cool find Viv!! Nice little football and the 2 has very nice distortion! You are doing great with the Ray system but like anything new, it just takes time to get used to it. Ray is giving some really great tips, especially on the lighting that I will try to implement. :)

Thank you very much Jon! I was anxious for you to see it - it's not a major - but the crazy thing is, it was in a customer roll that I got the other day. I went to the bank to see if they had any old pennies and all three tellers said "no... I don't think so, every roll we have opened lately is brand new pennies". Then they all searched their drawers looking for brown coins on the ends (they are learning fast), didn't see any but came up with 10 customer rolls. This circulated 2019 was in one of those rolls with older mixed dates! (I still have 1-1/2 bricks of unc. 2019P's to go through)

Ray is a wonderful teacher! He breaks things down into tiny bites so even people like me can understand! I have not felt overwhelmed - not even for a second!

[ray_parkhurst]

I'm not sure either Ray but what I have made is like this -link to diy camera diffuser (https://www.thephoblographer.com/2018/11/15/diy-diffuser-macro-photography/)

Also, I just thought of something. My desk top is glass (see through, not glass on top of wood, etc.) Could this cause a problem? Not sure if some light is bouncing around off the glass? I have a large black gaming mouse pad that I could put under the camera set up and lights that would eliminate glass anywhere close to the camera and lights.

It's always best to have non-reflective surfaces around the photo setup. Some folks put a hood around the whole thing to minimize stray light, but indeed your black mouse pad should do a good job.

The diffuser you show in the link above will certainly work, but I've never had good luck with such shapes. It's too easy to shine light at too low an angle. There are a few pros that make such a cone, and do well with it, but I personally would not recommend it. A flat paper diffuser has always worked best for me, like you see here:

http://www.macrocoins.com/example-system-2.html

I make diffusers out of Canson Opalux, which is color-neutral and very translucent but still diffuses well. It's fairly cheap as well, though some sellers require you to buy multiple sheets. Stationery and art stores usually sell it by the 14"x24" sheet for ~$4 each.

[VAB2013]

It's always best to have non-reflective surfaces around the photo setup. Some folks put a hood around the whole thing to minimize stray light, but indeed your black mouse pad should do a good job.

The diffuser you show in the link above will certainly work, but I've never had good luck with such shapes. It's too easy to shine light at too low an angle. There are a few pros that make such a cone, and do well with it, but I personally would not recommend it. A flat paper diffuser has always worked best for me, like you see here:

http://www.macrocoins.com/example-system-2.html

I make diffusers out of Canson Opalux, which is color-neutral and very translucent but still diffuses well. It's fairly cheap as well, though some sellers require you to buy multiple sheets. Stationery and art stores usually sell it by the 14"x24" sheet for ~$4 each.

Thank you Ray! I will use the black mouse pad on the desk, it is larger than a keyboard so that should give the glass a good enough cover.

Please tell me... with the flat diffuser, what do you do when the diffuser is up higher than ~4" from the coin, like with full coin shots? I am anxious to try this diffuser and will do it with some white paper until I can get the Canson Opalux!

[VAB2013]

Went back and re-read Ray's instructions, here's what I did. Ray, please tell me if I need to make adjustments. Thank you!

Large black gaming mouse pad is under the camera and lights (because of glass desk top)
Cut a 5" square paper with a hole in the center to match the 50mm lens. The paper diffuser is flat and has two tiny pieces of tape holding it on to the outside edge of the lens
Aperture set at f4.5
Lights are at 10:00 and 2:00 at a 45 degree angle touching the paper diffuser
Using 50mm lens

The first image 0005 is before any post image adjustments. Getting ready to post the second image.
The second image 0007 is after post processing and sizing. This post processing is much closer to the actual color of the Lincoln cent.

Ray, I'm sticking to your post image processing of B0, C10, H0, Sat 180, Sharp 250.
Also, the bellows is completely closed and I had to use the top knob (moving camera up and down) to focus.

[ray_parkhurst]

Excellent! That's what we're looking for. You might try moving the lights a bit above the diffuser to eliminate the over-exposure at top of head. You could also keep the lights there and set the exposure compensation a bit more negative, and then compensate in post.

Edited to add: for the 50mm lens you could go to f5.6 and still get just as sharp, with better depth of field.

[VAB2013]

Excellent! That's what we're looking for. You might try moving the lights a bit above the diffuser to eliminate the over-exposure at top of head. You could also keep the lights there and set the exposure compensation a bit more negative, and then compensate in post.

Edited to add: for the 50mm lens you could go to f5.6 and still get just as sharp, with better depth of field.

Thank you so much Ray! Awesome tips! I'm adding this to my notes and ready to give it a try!

[makecents]

Very nice new pic Viv, great work!

[VAB2013]

Very nice new pic Viv, great work!

Thank you very much Jon! I really can't believe I'm doing this! Ray is a fantastic coach! Okay... I just sat down to try the next step. I have never been so excited to take a pic of a Shield cent!

[VAB2013]

Excellent! That's what we're looking for. You might try moving the lights a bit above the diffuser to eliminate the over-exposure at top of head. You could also keep the lights there and set the exposure compensation a bit more negative, and then compensate in post.

Edited to add: for the 50mm lens you could go to f5.6 and still get just as sharp, with better depth of field.

Okay... I moved the lights about an inch above the diffuser paper and set the aperture to f5.6, still using the same post editing values that you gave me in the beginning. Here it is!

Ray, I'm having a little bit of a problem getting enough light to the bottom of the coin. So, I have been moving the zoom box around to force some light to the bottom and that could be why I'm still having over-exposure of light at the top. What do you think?

[makecents]

The clarity seems better on 0007 than 0008 to me, especially on the forhead.

[VAB2013]

The clarity seems better on 0007 than 0008 to me, especially on the forhead.

Thank you Jon for looking and helping! It might be because when I took 0007 I was not under the influence of Sudafed for my sinus infection :) I may have focused 0007 better? Had to take a sick day :tinysmile_fever_t:

[makecents]

Thank you Jon for looking and helping! It might be because when I took 0007 I was not under the influence of Sudafed for my sinus infection :) I may have focused 0007 better? Had to take a sick day :tinysmile_fever_t:I hate you're feeling bad, hope you get better soon! I'm sure it's like anything else Viv, no matter how good the equipment is, it will take time to get used to it. I think you are doing great with it and in a short time too!

[ray_parkhurst]

Okay... I moved the lights about an inch above the diffuser paper and set the aperture to f5.6, still using the same post editing values that you gave me in the beginning. Here it is!

Ray, I'm having a little bit of a problem getting enough light to the bottom of the coin. So, I have been moving the zoom box around to force some light to the bottom and that could be why I'm still having over-exposure of light at the top. What do you think?

Ahh, that makes sense. When you move the zoom box to brighten one area, you end up causing others to be over-exposed. It's much better to have the image a little dark rather than over-exposed. You can't recover blown highlights, but you can increase the brightness of dark areas in post. Don't worry so much if the image coming out of the camera has dark areas, since that can be improved/fixed in post. I will show you how it's done. Why don't you shoot the same Cent with the zoom box over the brightest area, and then post the result?

[VAB2013]

I hate you're feeling bad, hope you get better soon! I'm sure it's like anything else Viv, no matter how good the equipment is, it will take time to get used to it. I think you are doing great with it and in a short time too!

Thank you Jon! Yeah I am feeling pretty rough today. I think it's allergy related... the grass pollen count is extremely high right now and according to my former allergy doctor I am allergic to every grass, tree and weed in Alabama!

You know what really excites me about the Ray System, besides it taking great photos is the fact that once you get the system settings and things all worked out (thanks to Ray) then the lighting thing is no longer an issue. It's kinda like a cookie cutter doubled die - as long as you stick with the recipe!

[VAB2013]

Ahh, that makes sense. When you move the zoom box to brighten one area, you end up causing others to be over-exposed. It's much better to have the image a little dark rather than over-exposed. You can't recover blown highlights, but you can increase the brightness of dark areas in post. Don't worry so much if the image coming out of the camera has dark areas, since that can be improved/fixed in post. I will show you how it's done. Why don't you shoot the same Cent with the zoom box over the brightest area, and then post the result?

Okay great... let me try that! Thank you!

[VAB2013]

Ahh, that makes sense. When you move the zoom box to brighten one area, you end up causing others to be over-exposed. It's much better to have the image a little dark rather than over-exposed. You can't recover blown highlights, but you can increase the brightness of dark areas in post. Don't worry so much if the image coming out of the camera has dark areas, since that can be improved/fixed in post. I will show you how it's done. Why don't you shoot the same Cent with the zoom box over the brightest area, and then post the result?

Okay, here it is. Everything is the same as the previous, only difference is I placed the zoom box in the brightest area of the coin, which in this case was the top left quadrant. I have not done any post processing or resizing of this photo. Thank you for showing me how to fix this!

Also, with the bellows completely closed I have very little adjustment I can make to focus. Does that seem right?

[ray_parkhurst]

Okay, here it is. Everything is the same as the previous, only difference is I placed the zoom box in the brightest area of the coin, which in this case was the top left quadrant. I have not done any post processing or resizing of this photo. Thank you for showing me how to fix this!

Also, with the bellows completely closed I have very little adjustment I can make to focus. Does that seem right?

Viv...with the bellows closed, you will need to move both camera and lens up/down to focus.

See below for an edited copy of your last image. The forum downsized it considerably, and to an odd size, so sharpness will suffer a bit. I suggest you always downsize to within the forum limits so that you control the downsizing, not the forum software. That said, I went ahead and did the edits. See the parameters in histogram. Pay special attention to the tone curve, as this coin was sensitive to the settings for each Zone:

142588 142590

[VAB2013]

Viv...with the bellows closed, you will need to move both camera and lens up/down to focus.

See below for an edited copy of your last image. The forum downsized it considerably, and to an odd size, so sharpness will suffer a bit. I suggest you always downsize to within the forum limits so that you control the downsizing, not the forum software. That said, I went ahead and did the edits. See the parameters in histogram. Pay special attention to the tone curve, as this coin was sensitive to the settings for each Zone:

142588 142590

Looks great! Thank you Ray! I don't know what the forum sizing limits are, but I can find out. Also... I noticed that when I was focusing, I would let go of the knob and the focus was slipping some. I had to tighten the knob on the left bottom.

More good stuff for my notes! This is great!

[jfines69]

Nice find Vivien... Your pics are really coming along great!!!

[VAB2013]

Nice find Vivien... Your pics are really coming along great!!!

Thank you Jim! Hey... do you know what the forum size limit is for pics?

[ray_parkhurst]

Viv...it looks like you downsized your last image to 1296x864, but when I downloaded it the image was 1295x863. I don't know if the forum software is doing this resizing or not but somehow this needs to be figured out. I may try some experiments if I have time to see what the software is doing but if someone knows already that would help.

[VAB2013]

Viv...it looks like you downsized your last image to 1296x864, but when I downloaded it the image was 1295x863. I don't know if the forum software is doing this resizing or not but somehow this needs to be figured out. I may try some experiments if I have time to see what the software is doing but if someone knows already that would help.

Thank you Ray! I asked Jim to see if he knows. I will check the next time I upload an image and see if I can tell what it's doing.

[jfines69]

Viv...with the bellows closed, you will need to move both camera and lens up/down to focus.

See below for an edited copy of your last image. The forum downsized it considerably, and to an odd size, so sharpness will suffer a bit. I suggest you always downsize to within the forum limits so that you control the downsizing, not the forum software. That said, I went ahead and did the edits. See the parameters in histogram. Pay special attention to the tone curve, as this coin was sensitive to the settings for each Zone:

142588 142590
When I opened Viviens image in a new tab it comes out as 1575 x 1050 and yours is 1574 x 1049... Is that what you all are getting??? Nice pic Vivien!!!

[ray_parkhurst]

Jim...yes, I think that's right. I expect Vivien's original is 1576x1051. If you download my image, and then upload it again, you'll find it has been reduced to 1573x1048. Do that again and it will be 1572x1047, and so on.

[jfines69]

I wonder if the loss of size on these images is due to compression??? Every time a file is sent over the internet it gets compressed prior to transmission... When uploaded from our computers it is compressed prior to being sent... Before being stored on the LCFs server it is most likely compressed again... Then when the images are sent to us from the LCF server the file is compressed again... Depending on the algorithm used that is a lot of lost data!!!