2019P with incuse anomaly - using Ray's techniques on other photography systems

[VAB2013]

Still going through these 2 solid bricks of 2019P's! About two weeks ago I found a 2019P that had a struck through on the obverse. The pics are at Post #12. (http://www.lincolncentforum.com/forum/showthread.php?45357-2019P-Struck-through-thread-or-filament-at-neck/page2&highlight=struck)

I am using the Celestron for searching because it is faster for me to go through a lot of Lincolns. This anomaly looked questionable under the Celestron, somewhat raised, somewhat incuse - just not clear either way.

This one that I am posting has an anomaly at N of ONE and another anomaly on the field at the lower right of the Shield that looks like it could be from a rim burr and both of them looked raised under the Celestron LED lights. So, to get more practice with Ray's ingenious 3D photography tips quoted below, I decided to look closer at this one and focus on the anomaly at N of ONE. (You can see the rim burr in the full reverse shot)

Ray's quotes:

"I spoke earlier about lighting, but specifically if you want to see things in "3D" you can use 1 light at a very low angle, ~20deg from horizontal. This will give a nice shadowing effect on all the surface characteristics."

"For some reason that technique is not well-known. I saw its potential when I did a lighting sweep from 10-deg to 80-deg to show the effect of lighting angle on the "look" of the coin photo, and it's pretty obvious that low angles really show off the topography. You could even go lower...10-deg is even more dramatic, but your 20-deg shots make it clear what is incuse and what is raised."

With the Ray System and the acquired knowledge from Ray - the anomaly is incuse.

Here are the pics:

(Added: I didn't do any resizing to these pics since I'm not sure how to do that yet. Hope they show up okay.)

[VAB2013]

Now for part 2 of 3, I'm breaking this thread up in 3 sections to try to make it easier to follow.

Then I used the same Ray technique to see if I could make EPU on the Shield to look incuse like it's supposed to look. Here is what I found. I was able to make EPU look incuse in a small section, but not much more than just the first few letters. I thinking this is because on a larger area, the lighting and shadows change.

Here are those pics:

[VAB2013]

This is the 3rd part. I wanted to see if I could use the same Ray technique with the Celestron and it actually worked pretty well. Here are those pics:

Added: With the first photo I had the Celestron LED lights turned completely off and used one Jansjo light with no paper diffuser. This is the same exact way the Ray System photo was shot with no diffuser because the light is so close to the coin there is no way to use a paper diffuser.

With the second photo, the Celestron LED lights were turned completely off and I used the WalMart Daylight Bulb (I like the color it produces) and I had to use a paper diffuser because the light was coming from a higher angle.

[Petespockets55]

Hey Viv. Don't have much time lately but wanted to chime in and help if I can.

With the full reverse, was the light source at about 10:00?
1)Both anomalies look incuse to me in the full reverse image.
a)You are saying the anomaly in the full rev. shot in the field below the N is raised? It sure looks incuse to me when I adjust for the angle of the light source.
b)The anomaly at the N of ONE looks incuse to me when I force myself to recognize the direction of the lighting.
2)My brain warp is still seeing this image of EPL as raised, not incuse. (I think the edge of the shield next to the E is tricking my brain and throwing me off.

3)It is taking a lot of effort for me to control my brain into seeing them as incuse. I still have to remind myself the direction of the light.

Nice comparison images by the way.

[VAB2013]

Hey Viv. Don't have much time lately but wanted to chime in and help if I can. Thank you Cliff!

With the full reverse, was the light source at about 10:00? I used 2 Janjo's, normally they would be positioned at 10:00 and 2:00 but I've been having problems with darkness at the bottom of the coin since the lights are shining at the top. This time I moved the Jansjo's much higher in relation to the paper diffuser and moved them until the light appeared to be more disbursed over the entire coin. The Jansjo's position were 45 degrees at 3:00 and 6:00. This is something that Ray has been helping me with and I first started with the directions and photo edits he gave me and I still had the dark area so I decided to try this.

1)Both anomalies look incuse to me in the full reverse image.
Yes, they do to me too, I guess the lighting was at a good angle?

a)You are saying the anomaly in the full rev. shot in the field below the N is raised? It sure looks incuse to me when I adjust for the angle of the light source.
No, that area looked raised under the Celestron.

b)The anomaly at the N of ONE looks incuse to me when I force myself to recognize the direction of the lighting.
Yes, it is actually incuse.

2)My brain warp is still seeing this image of EPL as raised, not incuse. (I think the edge of the shield next to the E is tricking my brain and throwing me off.
Yes, the EPU photo that is titled "Ray System EPU raised" actually morphs back and forth when I look at it so I wondered if other people have the same thing happen. But when I look away, blink, and look back at it, it looks raised.

3)It is taking a lot of effort for me to control my brain into seeing them as incuse. I still have to remind myself the direction of the light.
Ah ha! So it's not just me! That is comforting to know :) Actually the only pic I had problems with my brain was the EPU one. My hope with this thread is to help other people get the most out of whatever camera set up they have when it comes to trying to figure out incuse and raised anomalies. I was really happy to see that Ray's techniques would work with the Celestron and different lighting, so it should work with other types of set ups as well.

Nice comparison images by the way.

Cliff, I have tried something new... I typed answers to your questions in red to see if this will work. Guess we'll see!

[Petespockets55]

Aha! I like it Viv. That is a great way edit emails also. Thanks for taking the time to answer them all.

Ok so it was two Jansjo's not a single source.

We've both been fighting that mind warping visual distortion thing on incuse vs. raised. We'll beat it.

[VAB2013]

Aha! I like it Viv. That is a great way edit emails also. Thanks for taking the time to answer them all. Thank you Cliff, I'm glad it worked! And thank you for your time looking this over!

Ok so it was two Jansjo's not a single source. Yes Sir, I always use two Jansjo's with the Ray System, unless I'm doing the 3D technique, then just one.

We've both been fighting that mind warping visual distortion thing on incuse vs. raised. We'll beat it.
Yes we have Cliff. I tried to do some research as to why some people's eye-brain connection does that and couldn't find a concrete answer.


Answers are above - thank you so much Cliff for your insight on this!

Added: there is probably a way to do what I'm doing by replying with multiple quotes and deleting all but the particular statement you are answering - if so... just goes to show you my brain works in weird ways sometimes :)