2019P-1DO-002

[makecents]

I have a couple unlisted 2019 DDO's but this is the first listed variety I've found. Absolutely no listed markers, maybe an earlier die state. A little FOOTBALL action!!


cc (http://www.coppercoins.com/lincoln/diestate.php?date=2019&die_id=2019p1do002&die_state=mds)

[VAB2013]

Looks like CC 002 to me also Jon! This one at MDS has a bunch of OBV/REV markers so yours must be EDS like you said. Cool find with a little football action!

[joel]

Nice find Jon!! Congrats!! Very few 2019P found around here.

[makecents]

Thanks Viv and Larry!! I still have seen very few 2019's, maybe up to half a dozen rolls all together.

[TPring]

Nice catch [no pun intended] :nerd:

Those 9's are incredibly huge.

[makecents]

Nice catch [no pun intended] :nerd:

Those 9's are incredibly huge.Thanks T!! I always like your puns!:)

[jfines69]

I will take a better look a little later... To me yours doesn't look like CCs 002 (http://www.coppercoins.com/lincoln/diestate.php?date=2019&die_id=2019p1do002&die_state=mds)??? May just be me tho???

[Roller]

Here's one I pulled a few minutes ago. Looks like yours and has no markers (the mark on the forehead is a hit). Mine is not EDS looking at the flow lines. So I'm wondering also if it is an 002. Don't mean to step on your thread but thought it might be helpful for identification.

[makecents]

Here's one I pulled a few minutes ago. Looks like yours and has no markers (the mark on the forehead is a hit). Mine is not EDS looking at the flow lines. So I'm wondering also if it is an 002. Don't mean to step on your thread but thought it might be helpful for identification.You can hop in on my thread anytime, I'm always needing help. I could be wrong, but your date looks much more distorted than mine. I'll post the obverse and reverse at the beginning here in just a few minutes. Thanks George!

[makecents]

Here's one I pulled a few minutes ago. Looks like yours and has no markers (the mark on the forehead is a hit). Mine is not EDS looking at the flow lines. So I'm wondering also if it is an 002. Don't mean to step on your thread but thought it might be helpful for identification.I also added a closeup of 20 and 19 and after looking closer, I think you are correct on these being the same die and that would make Jim correct also. I think the extra distortion I thought I saw on yours was a hit across the middle of your 2.

[VAB2013]

Nice work on this one Jon and Roller! I'm really curious to see what you all and Jim come up with because I'm still seeing 002.

[Roller]

It looks like 002 to me also. Just that it does not have the markers for whatever reason.

[VAB2013]

It looks like 002 to me also. Just that it does not have the markers for whatever reason.

Odd... I wonder if all of those markers on 002 happened at the same time around MDS to LMDS?

[makecents]

Odd... I wonder if all of those markers on 002 happened at the same time around MDS to LMDS?I thought it was a given that mine was an 002 until Jim and Roller chimed in. The problem I now have with this, is Rollers flow lines are greater than the listing and thus, his are from a later stage. Mine has a bunch of Will lines but that is about it and is maybe early mid die state at best. All this being said, I think this may be a working hub doubled die, possibly, not dissimilar to the 2017P's. We will have to wait and see, it's early yet.

[VAB2013]

I thought it was a given that mine was an 002 until Jim and Roller chimed in. The problem I now have with this, is Rollers flow lines are greater than the listing and I thus, his are from a later stage. Mine has a bunch of Will lines but that is about it and is maybe early mid die state at best. All this being said, I think this may be a working hub doubled die, possibly, not dissimilar to the 2017P's. We will have to wait and see, it's early yet.

cool... and the plot thickens :ooh:

[VAB2013]

Well Jon and Roller.... I have found several 2019P minor DD's and have been putting them aside. Let me see if by chance I have this one. I looked back at the ones I have posted so far and none of them look like 002 to me.

[makecents]

cool... and the plot thickens :ooh:I could be wrong but that would help explain this.

[makecents]

Well Jon and Roller.... I have found several 2019P minor DD's and have been putting them aside. Let me see if by chance I have this one. I looked back at the ones I have posted so far and none of them look like 002 to me.Yeah, I apologize, I actually thought about going back and searching yours but did not. Thanks for all you do here Viv, you are the glue, Ambassador, that holds it all together!:)

[VAB2013]

Jon, I looked back at ones I have not posted and have posted. I don't have anything like 002, the closest one I have is this one (http://www.lincolncentforum.com/forum/showthread.php?45010-2019P-with-some-doubling-at-Date-and-Liberty/page3), but it's not 002. I bet you and Roller will find more of this particular one, especially now that it's on your "high radar"!

Here's a close up on the date of the one in the referenced thread. (this was the one with the red hot coals full coin shot LOL)

[VAB2013]

Yeah, I apologize, I actually thought about going back and searching yours but did not. Thanks for all you do here Viv, you are the glue, Ambassador, that holds it all together!:)

Thank you very much Jon! You know I just love a good Lincoln mystery, and it just dawned on me that I forgot what the other ones I found looked like. Now you have inspired me to group them together and see which ones are from the same die pairs. (Also thanks to Rowdy and Ed!)

[VAB2013]

I could be wrong but that would help explain this.

You may be right Jon, if it's a doubled working hub issue then the markers would vary among the different working dies that were affected. I think one way to know is if many are found with the same doubling on the date as yours and Rollers.

[Rowdyricster]

You may be right Jon, if it's a doubled working hub issue then the markers would vary among the different working dies that were affected...

And....the light just came on. You have just enhanced my understanding tremendously.

Very cool coin, Jon (and Roller).

[VAB2013]

And....the light just came on. You have just enhanced my understanding tremendously.

Very cool coin, Jon (and Roller).

Thank you Rowdy! Really, I'm not very smart - I just read (http://doubleddie.com/2318537.html) and copy and paste well, some of it sticks. If I had to write too much in my own words, it would be a mess :tinysmile_grin_t:

[jfines69]

I have book marked this thread... Cna I download images from ya'll??? I do not think any of these match but need to look closer???

[makecents]

I have book marked this thread... Cna I download images from ya'll??? I do not think any of these match but need to look closer???Yes sir, have at any of mine. Let me know if you need others.

[Roller]

I have book marked this thread... Cna I download images from ya'll??? I do not think any of these match but need to look closer???
Yes go for it.

[TPring]

A little FOOTBALL action!!



Kinda funny,

We both have a sports analogy to D/Ds. You refer to the 00's as footballs and I think of the L in PLURIBUS as a hockey stick when it's part of a Class 6 DDR.

[makecents]

Kinda funny,

We both have a sports analogy to D/Ds. You refer to the 00's as footballs and I think of the L in PLURIBUS as a hockey stick when it's part of a Class 6 DDR.What's funny, is I'm not really a football fan but all I see are footballs with those distorted zeros!:)

[jfines69]

Yes sir, have at any of mine. Let me know if you need others.


Yes go for it.

Cool... Thanks... I do appreciate it... I may be totally wrong on what I think I see but need to look closer to be sure!!!

[jfines69]

I have not forgotten ya'll... I have been pretty much sidelined due to back problems... I hope to have some info up later today!!!

[TPring]

What's funny, is ...:)

[And even funnier] I'm not much of a sports fan at all.

[TPring]

I have been pretty much sidelined due to back problems...


Ouch, that does not sound like fun. Rest up and don't strain yourself.

[makecents]

I have not forgotten ya'll... I have been pretty much sidelined due to back problems... I hope to have some info up later today!!!I aint got nothin but time Jim! Get yourself healed up before you worry about this stuff.:)

[VAB2013]

I aint got nothin but time Jim! Get yourself healed up before you worry about this stuff.:)

Finally have a day off and trying to get caught up - sorry your back is causing you problems Jim! You take care and do what you need to do to feel better... rest and take it easy! We will do our best to hold down the fort for a few days if we need to. Jon is great at catching :spam4: and the rest of us will help out too!

[jfines69]

Pretty much still down for the count... My concentration levels are thru the floor... Sorry for the delay!!!

[VAB2013]

Pretty much still down for the count... My concentration levels are thru the floor... Sorry for the delay!!!

Sorry Jim, that's not what we were hoping to hear - but thank you for the update. Take care so you can get well sooner - your health and well-being is what's most important to us! Meanwhile we will all keep up with the questions we have for you so as soon as you get back we can let you know where to find the threads.

[makecents]

Finally have a day off and trying to get caught up - sorry your back is causing you problems Jim! You take care and do what you need to do to feel better... rest and take it easy! We will do our best to hold down the fort for a few days if we need to. Jon is great at catching :spam4: and the rest of us will help out too!Glad you got a day off Viv!!:) Jim is a tough one and will carry on. An anti spam man I am!:)

[makecents]

Pretty much still down for the count... My concentration levels are thru the floor... Sorry for the delay!!!RELAX ​AM!!

[VAB2013]

Glad you got a day off Viv!!:) Jim is a tough one and will carry on. An anti spam man I am!:)

Thank you Mr. :sign7: Man LOL! Yep Jon, it was nice to have a day off! I've been searching Lincolns all day - so far just a 2004 minor DDO (no DDR), a couple of minor DDR columns and several nice Ed System cents! I think number-wise, a nice one should be showing up soon!

I think you are right about Jim, he is pretty tough and will probably be back tomorrow! Maybe not in full swing... but back! Hope so!

[Sheila ruley]

Wow! What a find! Very good eye. Touchdown!

[jfines69]

I have finally finished... Sorry for the delay... I compared Jons', Georges' and CCs 002 (http://www.coppercoins.com/lincoln/diestate.php?date=2019&die_id=2019p1do002&die_state=mds) (I am unable to post the CC image at this time) and I believe they are all different dies??? Jons' does not appear show notching on the 1 or 9 (blue arrows) and the angle of the notching on Georges' 1 and 9 does not match that of CCs... I also compared the angles of the notching across the 20... I started with the 2s horizontal bar NE corner on Georges' coin (red line)... Jons' does not have this notch... I copied that line to the other notched areas... Even tho there is some damage on both coins the angle do not appear to match??? Also on Georges' 9 there may be a separation line (white arrow)... Back to Jons' 9 - Even tho there is no visible notching I think it is also doubled??? If we compare the inside of the 9s loop it is much tighter than Georges' or CCs'... Due to the damage I had to look at the junction where the 9 and field join up... The distortion is similar in direction as the notching on the 20... There also appears to be a pressure ridge along the west side of the 9s tail very similar to what CCs exhibits... I hope I'm correct... Hopefully Bob will chime in and do some examination... Either confirm what I see or shoot me down in a blaze of fire :LOL_Hair: Which is fine either way as long as the correct attribution is obtained!!!

[makecents]

I have finally finished... Sorry for the delay... I compared Jons', Georges' and CCs 002 (http://www.coppercoins.com/lincoln/diestate.php?date=2019&die_id=2019p1do002&die_state=mds) (I am unable to post the CC image at this time) and I believe they are all different dies??? Jons' does not appear show notching on the 1 or 9 (blue arrows) and the angle of the notching on Georges' 1 and 9 does not match that of CCs... I also compared the angles of the notching across the 20... I started with the 2s horizontal bar NE corner on Georges' coin (red line)... Jons' does not have this notch... I copied that line to the other notched areas... Even tho there is some damage on both coins the angle do not appear to match??? Also on Georges' 9 there may be a separation line (white arrow)... Back to Jons' 9 - Even tho there is no visible notching I think it is also doubled??? If we compare the inside of the 9s loop it is much tighter than Georges' or CCs'... Due to the damage I had to look at the junction where the 9 and field join up... The distortion is similar in direction as the notching on the 20... There also appears to be a pressure ridge along the west side of the 9s tail very similar to what CCs exhibits... I hope I'm correct... Hopefully Bob will chime in and do some examination... Either confirm what I see or shoot me down in a blaze of fire :LOL_Hair: Which is fine either way as long as the correct attribution is obtained!!!

Nice work Jim!! I'll have to check it out when I can pull all the pics up at once on my laptop but it looks good. Thank you sir!!

[Roller]

Right or wrong, nice work Jim. They do look different to me as well.

[VAB2013]

Very nice work on these photos and explanations Jim! I'm still not sure, sorry. To me the angles look close, the notching at the top of the 1 on Roller's does look more pronounced. The striations on the 9 of both coins are going in different directions and on Jon's 9, the striations appear to have flattened more of the 9 right where your blue arrow is pointing. I'm thinking that an in hand inspection would be best because there can be so many variances in photos, lighting, die wear, circulation wear, etc. To me they are still looking so close to the same and maybe that's a hit on the 1 of Jon's that's causing the notching to not show up. Sorry to be such a pain. Please point out to me what I am missing, so maybe I can see it better!

[makecents]

After looking at them side by side, I would have to say I'm undecided. I think I would have to agree with Viv on this. I would not mind to send to you if you would like? Just let me know Jim.

[VAB2013]

After looking at them side by side, I would have to say I'm undecided. I think I would have to agree with Viv on this. I would not mind to send to you if you would like? Just let me know Jim.

Jon, this has bothered me all day because I didn't want to sound like I am disagreeing, I just can't tell. I think when we use images like this to figure out if finds are certain DD's or RPM's it is different because we have the listing and that gives us something concrete to go by. Whereas here, we are dealing with a new DD, and two of them that may be the same... or different. I realize this is a minor DD, just on the date... but when we start digging around to figure something out (which I am totally for that, even on a minor because it's fun to figure them out) it comes to a point where, even though to some people it might be pointless - to some of us we become more determined to get to the bottom of it!

[jfines69]

Very nice work on these photos and explanations Jim! I'm still not sure, sorry. To me the angles look close, the notching at the top of the 1 on Roller's does look more pronounced. The striations on the 9 of both coins are going in different directions and on Jon's 9, the striations appear to have flattened more of the 9 right where your blue arrow is pointing. I'm thinking that an in hand inspection would be best because there can be so many variances in photos, lighting, die wear, circulation wear, etc. To me they are still looking so close to the same and maybe that's a hit on the 1 of Jon's that's causing the notching to not show up. Sorry to be such a pain. Please point out to me what I am missing, so maybe I can see it better!
No need to be sorry... Like I said before I am no pro and do not claim to be one... I am only pointing out what I think I see and my understanding of how the process works... On the striations, if they are the ones I think you are talking about, those are not die related, they are individual to the planchets... On Jons' 1 if you follow the outline, use the non pointer pic, of the 1 where it intersects the field you will see there is no sign of a notch but a normal 1... If you look at the 20 and inside of Jons' 9 (inside of the loop) you will see the outline is also distorted like the devices... That's the best I can explain at this time (my back has really taken a toll on the concentration)... Hope that helps a bit!!!

[jfines69]

After looking at them side by side, I would have to say I'm undecided. I think I would have to agree with Viv on this. I would not mind to send to you if you would like? Just let me know Jim.
I may not be able to get to it rite away... All depends on my back :LOL_Hair: but send it my way!!!

[makecents]

I may not be able to get to it rite away... All depends on my back :LOL_Hair: but send it my way!!!Thanks Jim!! I think as Viv said, there may be issues with the pics I took and you would be able to do much more with it in hand. I really think the "Will" lines affect the look of the devices too, maybe hiding some things or wiping them out all together. As I told you before, I got nothin but time.:) I'll send it to you and you get to it when you are up to it. Thanks again Jim!

[jfines69]

Thanks Jim!! I think as Viv said, there may be issues with the pics I took and you would be able to do much more with it in hand. I really think the "Will" lines affect the look of the devises too, maybe hiding some things or wiping them out all together. As I told you before, I got nothin but time.:) I'll send it to you and you get to it when you are up to it. Thanks again Jim!
Cool... Looking forward to the challenge!!!

[jfines69]

Jon, this has bothered me all day because I didn't want to sound like I am disagreeing, I just can't tell. I think when we use images like this to figure out if finds are certain DD's or RPM's it is different because we have the listing and that gives us something concrete to go by. Whereas here, we are dealing with a new DD, and two of them that may be the same... or different. I realize this is a minor DD, just on the date... but when we start digging around to figure something out (which I am totally for that, even on a minor because it's fun to figure them out) it comes to a point where, even though to some people it might be pointless - to some of us we become more determined to get to the bottom of it!
It is never pointless to figure out what is going on with a coin... Wether it is chips/cracks and MD that a newbie doesn't understand or a DD that the more experienced person doesn't get it is always worth the effort to figure it out!!!

[VAB2013]

It is never pointless to figure out what is going on with a coin... Wether it is chips/cracks and MD that a newbie doesn't understand or a DD that the more experienced person doesn't get it is always worth the effort to figure it out!!!

Thank you Jim! We really do appreciate you helping us figure these things out and on the tough ones like this, I think people should send their coin to you like Jon is doing so that it's easier for you to make an accurate determination.

Added: I looked back to see if Roller was going to send his to you so we would have all of the pieces to the puzzle, but Roller hasn't said yet.

[jfines69]

Thank you Jim! We really do appreciate you helping us figure these things out and on the tough ones like this, I think people should send their coin to you like Jon is doing so that it's easier for you to make an accurate determination.

Added: I looked back to see if Roller was going to send his to you so we would have all of the pieces to the puzzle, but Roller hasn't said yet.
I'm always game... Even after a shower :LOL_Hair:

[jfines69]

Thanks for letting look at this coin Jon... I appreciate it... I color coded the pointers on the second date pic plus included LIBERTY and IGWT... On the date pics the 2nd is Jons from this thread... I used lighting from different directions to show what the lite does... What I did not see on Jons date pic was an apparent bulge on the 9 that is visible in the pointer pic but not in my 1st pic... Also notice on the 2 that the notch is no longer visible when compared with Jons pic... What is strange is that the 1 does not appear to be doubled??? I do believe it is a DDO but does not match any listed... My pics can be downloaded and used as any one needs!!!

[makecents]

My pics can be downloaded and used as any one needs!!! Very nice work Jim and thank you for taking time to do this!! Your pics have created more questions for me though... I don't know what the areas I have marked up would be considered, on the 2, 0 and 1, it almost looks like separation, just above the lines I have made. One thing in all pics taken, yours and mine, that is consistent, is a raised area in the field and tied to the 9. Maybe something to do with how the class 9 DD's are formed?

[VAB2013]

Very nice photos and explanations Jim! Jon, will you PM Will with a link to this thread of yours so he can see what you are showing in your marked up pics? I'm curious if he has seen anything like this during his study!

[makecents]

Very nice photos and explanations Jim! Jon, will you PM Will with a link to this thread of yours so he can see what you are showing in your marked up pics? I'm curious if he has seen anything like this during his study!I just sent Will a PM and realized my messages were maxed out and would not send. I don't know how long it has been this way, so sorry if it appeared that I did not respond to anyone who has messaged me. Anyway, I cleaned it up and it works just fine now.

[VAB2013]

Okay, cool! Yeah Jon, one of those "peeps" was me :ooh:

[willbrooks]

Very nice work Jim and thank you for taking time to do this!! Your pics have created more questions for me though... I don't know what the areas I have marked up would be considered, on the 2, 0 and 1, it almost looks like separation, just above the lines I have made. One thing in all pics taken, yours and mine, that is consistent, is a raised area in the field and tied to the 9. Maybe something to do with how the class 9 DD's are formed?


Very nice photos and explanations Jim! Jon, will you PM Will with a link to this thread of yours so he can see what you are showing in your marked up pics? I'm curious if he has seen anything like this during his study!

Yes, I have seen this. This is consistent with other doubled dies. I have a hypothesis. Samples are in the mail to Ray for 3D imaging, which I am hoping will support my theory, but as of yet, my degree of confidence is not high enough for me to poison your minds with it yet.

[jfines69]

Very nice work Jim and thank you for taking time to do this!! Your pics have created more questions for me though... I don't know what the areas I have marked up would be considered, on the 2, 0 and 1, it almost looks like separation, just above the lines I have made. One thing in all pics taken, yours and mine, that is consistent, is a raised area in the field and tied to the 9. Maybe something to do with how the class 9 DD's are formed?
On the 210 those look almost like a pressure ridge??? Since they are in a different direction compared to the doubling I am thinking it is strike related??? However Will has an idea on what these are so this is one we will need to wait on to be sure of... As for the 9 that looks like a little slide MD!!!