Another 2019P WDDO-002 "looking" coin.

[makecents]

Found another one of these a little while ago, just wanted to see what you guys thought. Absolutely no 002 markers again. I'm really starting to wonder about the doubled working hub... Time will tell, I guess.

cc (http://www.coppercoins.com/lincoln/diestate.php?date=2019&die_id=2019p1do002&die_state=mds)

[VAB2013]

Yeah Jon, it's starting to look more suspicious! Does it have any markers? Like maybe something you can match up to the other find or have you already sent it to Jim?

[makecents]

Yeah Jon, it's starting to look more suspicious! Does it have any markers? Like maybe something you can match up to the other find or have you already sent it to Jim?Thanks for looking, my 2019 compadre!! :) Yeah, the other is on it's way to Jim already, as this one may be too, if he's up for it.

[VAB2013]

You're welcome Jon! You are liable to keep finding these just like the 2017P WDDO-005! I'm curious about how the study for the doubled working hub goes. Wonder how many look-alikes have to be found and since the markers will vary among the different working dies... heck I don't know how that works :ooh:

maybe if you find some markers on that one you can see if Jim has the same ones?

Added: I'm searching a Grande' coffee container of just Shields so I'll keep on the look for this one!

[jfines69]

This one doesn't look the same as CCs 002 (http://www.coppercoins.com/lincoln/diestate.php?date=2019&die_id=2019p1do002&die_state=mds)... I do not see notching on the 1... Forgot to tell you I got your coins Monday... Sorry about that!!!

[makecents]

This one doesn't look the same as CCs 002 (http://www.coppercoins.com/lincoln/diestate.php?date=2019&die_id=2019p1do002&die_state=mds)... I do not see notching on the 1... Forgot to tell you I got your coins Monday... Sorry about that!!!Your right Jim. The flat (notching) spot at 1 o'clock on the nine is not on mine or at least does not show as much. That's odd, because the shape looks right on the 2 and 0.

[jfines69]

Looking at the 9s tail, the west side looks like some slide MD??? It runs from the tails tip up to the loop where there is some distortion... I can't tell if the distortion is from the possible MD or from what appears to be a hit that has flattened the 9??? It also appears to be the same direction as the possible doubling on the 20???

[makecents]

Found another 002 looking coin.

[jfines69]

That's interesting Jon... That looks like an earlier die stage but it doesn't appear to have the notching on the 19??? On the inside of the 0, SSE section, there appears to be numerous small die dots that look the same as CCs 002 (http://www.coppercoins.com/lincoln/diestate.php?date=2019&die_id=2019p1do002&die_state=mds)??? When I looked at your 1st pic above there may also be some of the same die dots??? Very strange!!!

[makecents]

That's interesting Jon... That looks like an earlier die stage but it doesn't appear to have the notching on the 19??? On the inside of the 0, SSE section, there appears to be numerous small die dots that look the same as CCs 002 (http://www.coppercoins.com/lincoln/diestate.php?date=2019&die_id=2019p1do002&die_state=mds)??? When I looked at your 1st pic above there may also be some of the same die dots??? Very strange!!!I think this particular doubling is one to keep an eye on, I'm feeling more strongly about the doubled working hub as time goes on. I will use this thread to add any I find that I feel are related and so should others if they want to.

[VAB2013]

This is interesting Jon! I keep looking to see if I can find one like this one, but so far have not. I have 24 - 2019P's that are doubled dies and appear to be from 14 different working dies. I need to study them a little closer, but that's how it's looking. Seven of the different working dies I only have one example of and the other seven I have multiple examples.

[makecents]

This is interesting Jon! I keep looking to see if I can find one like this one, but so far have not. I have 24 - 2019P's that are doubled dies and appear to be from 14 different working dies. I need to study them a little closer, but that's how it's looking. Seven of the different working dies I only have one example of and the other seven I have multiple examples. I think I have four or five of these now and need to pick them apart a bit and see if I can find markers elsewhere. Have you found any likenesses that would make you think yours are overlapping, a possible working hub situation?

[VAB2013]

I think I have four or five of these now and need to pick them apart a bit and see if I can find markers elsewhere. Have you found any likenesses that would make you think yours are overlapping, a possible working hub situation?

I don't think any of the ones I have found are the same as yours. I will double check while I'm comparing markers and doubling and see if I overlooked something. Will report back :)

[makecents]

I don't think any of the ones I have found are the same as yours. I will double check while I'm comparing markers and doubling and see if I overlooked something. Will report back :)No, I didn't think so. I thought most of yours were more on "LIBERTY" than the date. I just thought maybe some of those you have were similar enough to possibly overlap like so many did in 2017.

[VAB2013]

No, I didn't think so. I thought most of yours were more on "LIBERTY" than the date. I just thought maybe some of those you have were similar enough to possibly overlap like so many did in 2017.

Actually there are only a couple with pretty nice doubling on Liberty, the rest are mostly the date and TY. Once I figure them out the best I can I may snap photos with markers because I may have a few that are worth listing. Some of them I found and have not had time to post on the forum yet but none of those are the big one or I would have already posted it :)

[jfines69]

You may be correct on the working hub being a culprit??? Very interesting!!!

[makecents]

You may be correct on the working hub being a culprit??? Very interesting!!!I figured I would just hold on to what I find and see how it progresses.

[VAB2013]

I figured I would just hold on to what I find and see how it progresses.

So far it looks like you are the only one getting these Jon. Could end up being like the 2017P-005's and you get tons of them! Do you have enough to look and compare markers and die state?

[makecents]

So far it looks like you are the only one getting these Jon. Could end up being like the 2017P-005's and you get tons of them! Do you have enough to look and compare markers and die state? You never know... I think I have 3 or 4, I'll have to check and look them over for like markers, I just haven't taken time to do it. I might wait and see if I can come up with a couple more first.


Added: I forgot, Roller has one similar to these.

[makecents]

Another one.... This one looks like the 1st one in this thread, it has the same slide MD on the tail of the 9 and some matching gouges.

[jfines69]

Very interesting... Can you find any markers else where on the coin???

[makecents]

Very interesting... Can you find any markers else where on the coin???I have not looked yet but am going to compare all I have found up to this point this weekend and see if I can find like markers.

[willbrooks]

Found another one of these a little while ago, just wanted to see what you guys thought. Absolutely no 002 markers again. I'm really starting to wonder about the doubled working hub... Time will tell, I guess.

cc (http://www.coppercoins.com/lincoln/diestate.php?date=2019&die_id=2019p1do002&die_state=mds)


I think this particular doubling is one to keep an eye on, I'm feeling more strongly about the doubled working hub as time goes on. I will use this thread to add any I find that I feel are related and so should others if they want to.


You may be correct on the working hub being a culprit??? Very interesting!!!


I figured I would just hold on to what I find and see how it progresses.

Think, I mean actually think about what you are suggesting. When you realize it is impossible, I will be waiting.

[makecents]

Think, I mean actually think about what you are suggesting. When you realize it is impossible, I will be waiting.Are you referring to the fact that I'm citing a working hub instead of a master die?

[willbrooks]

Are you referring to the fact that I'm citing a working hub instead of a master die?

If there was any discussion about a master die, I must have missed it.

[makecents]

If there was any discussion about a master die, I must have missed it.That was the best I could come up with to make you think about things.:) I'm still thinking about your question, so far I have not figured it out and may not. As you have probably figured out, I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer...

[makecents]

Still thinking ......



Just so you know, it's starting to hurt a little bit, little bit.:ooh:

[willbrooks]

That was the best I could come up with to make you think about things.:) I'm still thinking about your question, so far I have not figured it out and may not. As you have probably figured out, I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer... Ok, but I'll be expecting some holiday cookies in December.
Would a master die producing the date on a doubled working hub result in the same effect as a working hub producing EPU on a shield doubled die?

[makecents]

Ok, but I'll be expecting some holiday cookies in December.
Would a master die producing the date on a doubled working hub result in the same effect as a working hub producing EPU on a shield doubled die?It's odd you say that. There was a little truth in why I brought up the working hub/master die question. I don't get how the Wexler WWHO works. He has two that destroyed multiple DDO's, I don't get it. I would understand this with a couple of doubled master dies though. Am I wrong in my thinking? By the way, no cookies.... I'll give you some foreign pennies though, still holding them as they come, not keeping track of what I've sent you though, so you may get some dups.


Oh, the answer to your question is no, it would produce the opposite appearance.

[VAB2013]

Jon, Will's statement confuses me. I don't know how many working hubs are made from the master die with the single squeeze hubbing process but I figured it was just one working hub that made numerous working dies. There were doubled working hubs in 1989 and again in 2017 (probably some other years around that time period I don't know about). That tells me that there was more than just one working hub made in 1989 and 2017. What we are trying to figure out is - how is it determined that a doubled working hub is the culprit for multiple look alike varieties? Is that discovered when look alike varieties are found to have different die markers at different die states/stages that do not add up (make sense)?

[makecents]

Jon, Will's statement confuses me. I don't know how many working hubs are made from the master die with the single squeeze hubbing process but I figured it was just one working hub that made numerous working dies. There were doubled working hubs in 1989 and again in 2017 (probably some other years around that time period I don't know about). That tells me that there was more than just one working hub made in 1989 and 2017. What we are trying to figure out is - how is it determined that a doubled working hub is the culprit for multiple look alike varieties? Is that discovered when look alike varieties are found to have different die markers at different die states/stages that do not add up (make sense)?I think Will is trying to make simple comparisons between a working hub and the inverted EPU of a shield, which works for me and I understand what he is saying. I've always had an issue with the doubled working hub and how it would produce a doubled die like this(and also like the 2017P's), in my mind it isn't possible but have never brought it up, not wanting to show my ignorance.

A working hub's details look just like a coin would, with the fields being incuse and the design being raised, just as the EPU of a shield working die would be. That being said, think about what we end up with on a reverse doubled die shield at EPU, it is very thin and inverted, creating the opposite affect that a normal doubled die would have, with thickness or a spread. In the same sense, a working hub can not produce what we are seeing on the "20" on my 2019 examples. This creates more questions for me though, how do the WHHO's of Wexler's work? I've always wondered but never questioned.

[willbrooks]

Oh, the answer to your question is no, it would produce the opposite appearance.

Actually, the answer is yes. I didn't want to say too much and ruin my next big reveal, as this relates to my class 9 study. I was hoping to wait until I had the rest of the details worked out, but maybe it is time to start a new thread about this one part of it. I'm all coffeed up, so give me a little time and I'll make a new thread.

[makecents]

Actually, the answer is yes. I didn't want to say too much and ruin my next big reveal, as this relates to my class 9 study. I was hoping to wait until I had the rest of the details worked out, but maybe it is time to start a new thread about this one part of it. I'm all coffeed up, so give me a little time and I'll make a new thread.Cool!! I look forward to your explanation, because I'm really confused now.:squigglemouth:

[makecents]

Actually, the answer is yes. I didn't want to say too much and ruin my next big reveal, as this relates to my class 9 study. I was hoping to wait until I had the rest of the details worked out, but maybe it is time to start a new thread about this one part of it. I'm all coffeed up, so give me a little time and I'll make a new thread.So, given what you have said in your new thread, is what I'm seeing in these coins possibly from a
“distended” working hub and worth looking to see if I find like markers between the coins?

[willbrooks]

So, given what you have said in your new thread, is what I'm seeing in these coins possibly from a
“distended” working hub and worth looking to see if I find like markers between the coins?


That won't necessarily help, but if you could find a hub marker, that would be meaningful.

[jfines69]

I hope I remember this correctly - Try to think of the dies in a positive or negative image... 1) The coin itself is a positive image, 2) Working die = negative image, 3) Working hub = positive image (looks like the coin), 4) Master hub = negative image, 5) Master die = positive image... I do not know if the reduction lathe is still used to make the Master Dies (5) but those were a positive image and transfered to the Master Dies... That process is what gives us the reduction lathe doubling such as on the 72s Master Die Doubling... Master Die makes master hub... Master hub makes working hub... Working hub makes working die... Working die makes the coin... If there is a doubled working hub we would have to match markers across more than one working die to tell... That can take a lot of time since the working hubs are squeezed into the working die and due to the squeeze the working hub is less likely to produce die chips/dots or other anomalies to track... I hope that helps a bit!!!

[makecents]

I hope I remember this correctly - Try to think of the dies in a positive or negative image... 1) The coin itself is a positive image, 2) Working die = negative image, 3) Working hub = positive image (looks like the coin), 4) Master hub = negative image, 5) Master die = positive image... I do not know if the reduction lathe is still used to make the Master Dies (5) but those were a positive image and transfered to the Master Dies... That process is what gives us the reduction lathe doubling such as on the 72s Master Die Doubling... Master Die makes master hub... Master hub makes working hub... Working hub makes working die... Working die makes the coin... If there is a doubled working hub we would have to match markers across more than one working die to tell... That can take a lot of time since the working hubs are squeezed into the working die and due to the squeeze the working hub is less likely to produce die chips/dots or other anomalies to track... I hope that helps a bit!!!Thanks Jim. The problem with the whole doubled working hub does not work with this type of doubled die though (or the 2017P's), it would not create the spread, thickness and separation that a master or working die would create. This is what I have always had an issue with and never understood about the 2017P working hub doubling, I should have asked....

[willbrooks]

I hope I remember this correctly - Try to think of the dies in a positive or negative image... 1) The coin itself is a positive image, 2) Working die = negative image, 3) Working hub = positive image (looks like the coin), 4) Master hub = negative image, 5) Master die = positive image... I do not know if the reduction lathe is still used to make the Master Dies (5) but those were a positive image and transfered to the Master Dies... That process is what gives us the reduction lathe doubling such as on the 72s Master Die Doubling... Master Die makes master hub... Master hub makes working hub...
This is mostly wrong.
The reduction lathe transferred the image from the galvano to the master hub. The master hub made the master die, not the other way around. Then master dies make working hubs, and working hubs make working dies. Furthermore, the 1972 "master die doubling" has nothing at all to do with the reduction lathe. I don't know where you are getting your information, but I felt it important to correct you for the sake of those trying to learn the hobby.

[GrumpyEd]

The place you see reduction lathe doubling is mostly the forehead.


Wexlers article on reduction lathe doubling:

https://doubleddie.com/58285.html

[Maineman750]

I hope I remember this correctly - Try to think of the dies in a positive or negative image... 1) The coin itself is a positive image, 2) Working die = negative image, 3) Working hub = positive image (looks like the coin), 4) Master hub = negative image, 5) Master die = positive image... I do not know if the reduction lathe is still used to make the Master Dies (5) but those were a positive image and transfered to the Master Dies... That process is what gives us the reduction lathe doubling such as on the 72s Master Die Doubling... Master Die makes master hub... Master hub makes working hub... Working hub makes working die... Working die makes the coin... If there is a doubled working hub we would have to match markers across more than one working die to tell... That can take a lot of time since the working hubs are squeezed into the working die and due to the squeeze the working hub is less likely to produce die chips/dots or other anomalies to track... I hope that helps a bit!!! Have to agree with Will....you have this pretty mixed up

[jfines69]

Like I said - I hope I remember this correctly and I am glad you have corrected... Thank you very much... I do appreciate it!!!

[jfines69]

Thanks Jim. The problem with the whole doubled working hub does not work with this type of doubled die though (or the 2017P's), it would not create the spread, thickness and separation that a master or working die would create. This is what I have always had an issue with and never understood about the 2017P working hub doubling, I should have asked....
I agree with you completely... I have no idea on what info Wexler has placed his WWH decision on... With the explanation that Will gave in his thread I do see how the WWH designation would be incorrect... Now to see what Will has come up with on his research... I am sure it will be good!!!

[VAB2013]

Hey Jon, I think coppercoins has listed 2 new 2019P DD's since we were comparing yours in this thread to 002. Please take a look at CC 008 (https://coppercoins.com/lincoln/diestate.php?date=2019&die_id=2019p1do008&die_state=mds) and see what you think.

[makecents]

Hey Jon, I think coppercoins has listed 2 new 2019P DD's since we were comparing yours in this thread to 002. Please take a look at CC 008 (https://coppercoins.com/lincoln/diestate.php?date=2019&die_id=2019p1do008&die_state=mds) and see what you think.Thanks for bringing this to my attention Viv!! Hope work is good still!:) The original coin that I started the thread with looks more like cc's 008 than the others, where it has a little more thickness and distortion. The other two coins I posted, on post #8 and #20, are definitely not the 008 and may be two minor to even list. That being said, there are no markers but that does not necessarily mean anything.

This is another reason, (besides my laziness) why I have not sent any of my finds over the last couple of years in. In the more recent years, I cannot imagine how many coins the attributors get slammed with, with everyone trying to get a coin listed as a new find.

[VAB2013]

Thanks for bringing this to my attention Viv!! Hope work is good still!:) The original coin that I started the thread with looks more like cc's 008 than the others, where it has a little more thickness and distortion. The other two coins I posted, on post #8 and #20, are definitely not the 008 and may be two minor to even list. That being said, there are no markers but that does not necessarily mean anything.

This is another reason, (besides my laziness) why I have not sent any of my finds over the last couple of years in. In the more recent years, I cannot imagine how many coins the attributors get slammed with, with everyone trying to get a coin listed as a new find.

Thanks for the update Jon! Yeah, the ones that are minor are still fun to find, especially in a new year. I have a few like that too for 2019. I think many of us have a number of finds that could be sent in for new listings, and probably some that after the excitement of finding it has worn off then the decision that maybe they are too minor sets in (good idea to ask the guys here if you are not sure). I think if the find will help the hobby, it's a good idea to send them in for listing so some of us just need to catch up and get that done at some point :)

[jfines69]

Thanks for the update Jon! Yeah, the ones that are minor are still fun to find, especially in a new year. I have a few like that too for 2019. I think many of us have a number of finds that could be sent in for new listings, and probably some that after the excitement of finding it has worn off then the decision that maybe they are too minor sets in (good idea to ask the guys here if you are not sure). I think if the find will help the hobby, it's a good idea to send them in for listing so some of us just need to catch up and get that done at some point :)
I will send all mine in when I when the lotto :LOL_Hair: