Doing over lays AGAIN!

[eaxtellcoin]

I updated my Paint.net but I still do not get Ray's directions on how to use the program.
I have two photo's that may - may not be the same coin but I want to be sure they are not before I seperate them and go to the next. One coin is 1952-D WRPM-081 the other coin is 1MM-036. The problem I'm having is the REV markers are not matching up completely. Could be die state, could be a new REV Die.

What I need to know is how can I have both images open, I colored the secondary image so I could tell the difference between the two but since one image is not transparent I have no idea how to line them up by Rays directions.

I Don't due these very much and I only have to do this when the mintmark position is very close, and tilted in the same direction.

Can anyone let me know where a good set of directions are for doing over lays?
Thanks, Eric

[Petespockets55]

I'm looking forward to trying to follow this thread as I got frustrated myself trying to figure out how to do them.

[kloccwork419]

Just did a quick one on my phone...dont look like they match. MM is slightly off. Can do overlays pretty easy on photoshop. I just used an app called photolayer for this one. Never used paint to make one. GIMP is pretty good for them tho

[makecents]

Eric, I sent you an overylay I did with paint.net a few months ago and I won't lie to you, it took me quite some time to do it and still was not comfortable with it. Granted, it was the first I ever did and have not taken the time to practice with it since. I'm a hands on kind of person and don't pick up on things well without doing it several times... That being said, I have looked at both of your shots, multiple times and there is no doubt in my mind that these are different RPM's and of course dies.

Your die flow lines on both look near identical up to the tail of the 9, west to east, after that they change. On your 1st pic, after the tail of the 9, they are much more easterly. The mm on your first pic is more level and southerly. Just so you know, I had to get off my a$$ and sharpen a pencil to make notes... I'm a pencil man.:)

[jfines69]

Give me a bit and I will do one and post it!!!

[jfines69]

I numbered your RPMs 1 and 2... I laid 1 over 2... The date, jacket and rim align but 1s MM is to far north and slightly east... They do not match and the difference is to far for die wear!!!

[eaxtellcoin]

Ok Good. I thought they looked slightly different but didn't want to skip until sure. Thanks Jim for the over lay!!!

Jon, I'm right there with you. These 52-D WRPM's have had me at it for 2 weeks. There are right at 130 WRPM's at last count and between mine, Dr Dan's, and a roll of 50 un identified I'm getting tired of 1952-D. Esp since I still have 49 to look at Wexler and approx 32 to still I.D. But back to the original topic. Unless I perform the task 5 - 10 times and write it down - I forget also. That is why I made a copy of his directions, problem is i've tried them twice now and still cannot figure out all his perform this and that and how it relates to the picture.

Nice Jason.. Everyone's opinion here helps and picture over lays!

[jfines69]

You are very welcome... Glad I could help... I can not find paint.net... Is paint.net the correct site???

[makecents]

You are very welcome... Glad I could help... I can not find paint.net... Is paint.net the correct site???Here it is Jim. It looks like the most updated version was about a month ago.

(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paint.net)

[jfines69]

Here it is Jim. It looks like the most updated version was about a month ago.

(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paint.net)
Got me confused... Where do I download it from???

[makecents]

Got me confused... Where do I download it from???Here is a link to the download.

(https://www.getpaint.net/)

[Justafarmer]

The Mint Mark on Coin A appears to be located slightly south and east of the placement on coin B.

[jfines69]

Here is a link to the download.

(https://www.getpaint.net/)
Thanks Jon... No idea why I can not find that link??? Must be my drugs :LOL_Hair:

[eaxtellcoin]

OK I think I found the actual cross reference to 1MM-036, it looks like W089. After a few days of trying all the stuff on the web for over lays I think I figured out how to do them between transparencies and over lays. I will try to clean up Ray's original post once I've done a few and have it down.

[jfines69]

Did you do an overlay???

[eaxtellcoin]

Yes I did Jim, I thought the overlay was the first pic. Pic 2 was the coin I overlayed over pic 1
I'm getting an invalid file. This may take a bit

[jfines69]

Yes I did Jim, I thought the overlay was the first pic. Pic 2 was the coin I overlayed over pic 1
I'm getting an invalid file. This may take a bit
This one is much better... I figured the 1st one was an overlay by the file name but wasn't sure... I could only see the spots from the 2nd pic on the 1st pic... This one I can see the spots from both... Good job... On overlays with nice coins like you have the devices will come out clear other than die/circ wear and damage... On your overlay the only device that appears aligned is the 2... The jacket, rim, MM and 195 are fuzzy looking... Probably just a minor adjustment by stretching the top pic would help align the devices... On RPMs I try to size the MMs first then adjust from there... I rotate, stretch or shrink... Hope that helps a bit!!!

[jfines69]

Here is a link to the download.

(https://www.getpaint.net/)
Is that the actual software or just the plug in for Google???

[makecents]

Is that the actual software or just the plug in for Google???Not for sure Jim. I had to download it. Here is a pic of what it looks like when you open it.

[eaxtellcoin]

Man more problems with this die. The pictures are of both W089 from Dr. Dan's set and 1MM-036 from his set. The coins match - but different die states. Then I went through the other CC listings and Dan's coin has all the markers that match 1MM-032, His EDS and CC's EDS 032 are the same bit weaker marker's between both. I'm thinking 1MM-032 and 1MM-036 are the same die, different die state.

[jfines69]

Not for sure Jim. I had to download it. Here is a pic of what it looks like when you open it.
Thanks Jon... I will take another look... I want to help with the overlays but I need the software to be effective!!!

[jfines69]

Man more problems with this die. The pictures are of both W089 from Dr. Dan's set and 1MM-036 from his set. The coins match - but different die states. Then I went through the other CC listings and Dan's coin has all the markers that match 1MM-032, His EDS and CC's EDS 032 are the same bit weaker marker's between both. I'm thinking 1MM-032 and 1MM-036 are the same die, different die state.
I will take a look!!!


Added - I took a look at CCs 032 (http://www.coppercoins.com/lincoln/diestate.php?date=1952&die_id=1952d1mm032&die_state=mds) and 036 (http://www.coppercoins.com/lincoln/diestate.php?date=1952&die_id=1952d1mm036&die_state=mds)... I will do some overlays a little later but I also see some similar markers between the 2???

[kloccwork419]

It's a pretty simple software Jim. If you done any work on photoshop, this is like a coloring book..lol. Once you drag the 2nd layer on top, there an option to make it an overlay. Itll change some color settings for you and you can do the transparency level

[kloccwork419]

Man more problems with this die. The pictures are of both W089 from Dr. Dan's set and 1MM-036 from his set. The coins match - but different die states. Then I went through the other CC listings and Dan's coin has all the markers that match 1MM-032, His EDS and CC's EDS 032 are the same bit weaker marker's between both. I'm thinking 1MM-032 and 1MM-036 are the same die, different die state.



Think you might be right Eric. They line up perfect and they both have the same die scratch coming off the bottom of the 1.

[eaxtellcoin]

Yes. and The clash is there on 1MM-036 just alot weaker - only the top of the "T" shows with the weak clash at the neck.

[jfines69]

Is that the actual software or just the plug in for Google???
I finally found it... Thanks Jon!!!

[jfines69]

It's a pretty simple software Jim. If you done any work on photoshop, this is like a coloring book..lol. Once you drag the 2nd layer on top, there an option to make it an overlay. Itll change some color settings for you and you can do the transparency level
I finally found the correct link... It is a pretty simple program... Just got to learn the easiest way to use it!!!

[jfines69]

Which die is later - 032 or 036???

[eaxtellcoin]

032 is early 036 looks LMDS so 036

[jfines69]

032 is early 036 looks LMDS so 036
I wonder if the rev die was changed out??? The crack/chip on the T of CENT for 036 is shorter/smaller than 032s!!!

[jfines69]

With permission from Copper Coins and Bobs continued support I did an overlay of CCs 032 (http://www.coppercoins.com/lincoln/diestate.php?date=1952&die_id=1952d1mm032&die_state=mds) and 036 (http://www.coppercoins.com/lincoln/diestate.php?date=1952&die_id=1952d1mm036&die_state=mds)... I layed 036 over 032... The best I can tell is they are different dies... With the date, MM and rim aligned the jacket of 036 is displaced at an angle (pointer) that I do not think is related to die wear??? It is possible that there are highly similar markers between different dies!!!


Added - I did this overlay using my regular program... I got the same results with paint.net which I will post a little later!!!

[kloccwork419]

My picture is an overlay and mine match perfect. Even the scratch on the 1

[jfines69]

With permission from Copper Coins and Bobs continuos support I did another overlay with CCs 036 (http://www.coppercoins.com/lincoln/diestate.php?date=1952&die_id=1952d1mm036&die_state=mds) ovr 032 (http://www.coppercoins.com/lincoln/diestate.php?date=1952&die_id=1952d1mm032&die_state=mds) using paint.net... I have the same results as my other program... The jacket is not aligned... Why yours is different I do not know??? I have done 4 more overlays to make sure but they all come out the same way!!!

[jfines69]

My picture is an overlay and mine match perfect. Even the scratch on the 1
The scratch also aligns on mine!!!

[jfines69]

Man more problems with this die. The pictures are of both W089 from Dr. Dan's set and 1MM-036 from his set. The coins match - but different die states. Then I went through the other CC listings and Dan's coin has all the markers that match 1MM-032, His EDS and CC's EDS 032 are the same bit weaker marker's between both. I'm thinking 1MM-032 and 1MM-036 are the same die, different die state.
I have downloaded and been practicing with paint.net... Hopefully I can help you out with the overlays now... With 6 to 8 clicks I can have 2 pics in the layer (stack) and the top pic adjusted as the overlay!!!

[eaxtellcoin]

The two photo's I presented of the RPM are at the same magnification. The photo's you are representing here from CC are at a different magnification, plus a different angle.
Jim I'm not going to try and get perfect marker photo's. """The Clash is there on both coins - just weaker on 1MM-036"" I've spent way to long on this variety already. I'm just saying, when Copper comes back on line; someone should take a very good look at this die.

I also want to point out that in this thread there are two different varieties that are so close in proximity it takes a mirage of over lays to figure out which is the correct coin.

[jfines69]

The two photo's I presented of the RPM are at the same magnification. The photo's you are representing here from CC are at a different magnification, plus a different angle.
Jim I'm not going to try and get perfect marker photo's. """The Clash is there on both coins - just weaker on 1MM-036"" I've spent way to long on this variety already. I'm just saying, when Copper comes back on line; someone should take a very good look at this die.

I also want to point out that in this thread there are two different varieties that are so close in proximity it takes a mirage of over lays to figure out which is the correct coin.
It would be nice to have CC up and running again... There have been a number of listings that have been identified as incorrect... If memory serves me correctly Bob was keeping track at one time??? Did you get your overlays figured out with paint.net software???

[eaxtellcoin]

Yes I did, The big factor was setting the Opacity so you could tell both coins on the same picture. I could adjust with both coins showing which was NICE. When I lined up the mintmark - the 2 of the date was perfectly aligned but I had a slight ghost right to left. I'm not sure though if that is not just Die Deterioration. The problem we have with relying on over lays is the Opacity as stated before and the condition of the die which changes with die life. From what I see I think it's the same die. I could be wrong - god knows it's not the first time!!! but I would not have made the statement unless I was at least 90% sure.

It would have been really really nice if I could find one marker. Gouge, heavy scratch, all I have to go by is the clash which happened early in this dies life.

[jfines69]

Yes I did, The big factor was setting the Opacity so you could tell both coins on the same picture. I could adjust with both coins showing which was NICE. When I lined up the mintmark - the 2 of the date was perfectly aligned but I had a slight ghost right to left. I'm not sure though if that is not just Die Deterioration. The problem we have with relying on over lays is the Opacity as stated before and the condition of the die which changes with die life. From what I see I think it's the same die. I could be wrong - god knows it's not the first time!!! but I would not have made the statement unless I was at least 90% sure.

It would have been really really nice if I could find one marker. Gouge, heavy scratch, all I have to go by is the clash which happened early in this dies life.
Instead of adjusting the opacity I found it easier to click the overlay option... Just click the drop down menu where it says normal... It automatically adjusts the top image for opacity, color and brightness... Hope I was able to help you a bit... If we were perfect I doubt we would be here :LOL_Hair:

[styxman]

I have learned a bunch from this thread which only serves to show how stupid I am! I made a poor overlay from eaxtellcoin images. To help with differentiation of the merged mint marks, I outlined each mint mark prior to creating the overlay. Not sure if this is of any benefit.

[jfines69]

I have learned a bunch from this thread which only serves to show how stupid I am! I made a poor overlay from eaxtellcoin images. To help with differentiation of the merged mint marks, I outlined each mint mark prior to creating the overlay. Not sure if this is of any benefit.
Nice job on the overlay... Not east trying to outline the MMs been there done that and gave up trying :LOL_Hair:

[styxman]

Why is it that every time I make a post to Lincoln Cent Forum my computer crashes? After posting the above, my computer showed the new blue screen of death with some kind of "Thermal Event" and died. Dell has made seven attempts to get my system up and running but has not yet figured out what is wrong. Replaced memory modules, fans, liquid cooling units on both CPUs, and the motherboard twice. They have offered to replace my system with a new one - kinda, of as they no longer support my model. Not sure what I am going to do...

At any rate, thank you jfines69 for your reply. I made the outline in Adobe Illustrator, and your right - it is a bit difficult and time consuming.

[jfines69]

Why is it that every time I make a post to Lincoln Cent Forum my computer crashes? After posting the above, my computer showed the new blue screen of death with some kind of "Thermal Event" and died. Dell has made seven attempts to get my system up and running but has not yet figured out what is wrong. Replaced memory modules, fans, liquid cooling units on both CPUs, and the motherboard twice. They have offered to replace my system with a new one - kinda, of as they no longer support my model. Not sure what I am going to do...

At any rate, thank you jfines69 for your reply. I made the outline in Adobe Illustrator, and your right - it is a bit difficult and time consuming.
To me it sounds like your graphics card is causing the thermal event??? If they were willing to give me a new/remanufactured computer I would take them up on it but that's me... I max my graphics hardware/software out for image quality and it can burn up some hardware :LOL_Hair:

[styxman]

Thanks for your thoughts. Thermal event associated with CPUs but graphic cards could be adding to the problem. Still no word from Dell... Hope to be back online soon.