Need a little help on this DDR

[TPring]

I would like to ID this 1909 non-VDB but so far have been unable to do so.


It has medium Class VI doubling and the most useful marker is a die-dot on the T of CENT. Does anyone recognize this marker ?

Any help is appreciated.


Thanks

[Petespockets55]

Is it MDS (mid die state)?
That's a nice marker on the T but you may need to post images of the full rev and obv.

EDIT: A couple of images of the outside of both wheat lines might be helpful as well since class two separation is sometimes "hiding" there.

[TPring]

Is it MDS (mid die state)?


EDIT: A couple of images of the outside of both wheat lines might be helpful as well since class two separation is sometimes "hiding" there.

Thanks for our quick response.

Not sure about the state, but I'll try and get some images up this weekend. My full shots tend to get washed out by the LEDs so I am hoping for some muted sunshine this weekend [seeing that I also need to do some yardwork:angel:].

Unfortunately, these 1909 [cl. VI] DDRs are all very similar in appearance -- Another set of markers that appears on quite a few of these is the "squiggly line" and "tangent" off the bottom of the last 9 [see pic]. I have a few that I am trying to identify and this dot is the most obvious marker on any of them. :neutral:

[jfines69]

Nice DDR... Did you take a close look at CCs 003 (http://www.coppercoins.com/lincoln/diestate.php?date=1909&die_id=1909p1dr003&die_state=mds)??? That marker on the jacket is really strong like CCs... Some more pics would help also!!!

[TPring]

Is it MDS (mid die state)?
That's a nice marker on the T but you may need to post images of the full rev and obv.

EDIT: A couple of images of the outside of both wheat lines might be helpful as well since class two separation is sometimes "hiding" there.

Oaky, here are some more images:



... Did you take a close look at CCs 003 (http://www.coppercoins.com/lincoln/diestate.php?date=1909&die_id=1909p1dr003&die_state=mds)??? That marker on the jacket is really strong like CCs... Some more pics would help also!!!

I do not see that reverse marker on mine and the two markers on the obverse are found on many 1909 coins: VDB, non-VDB, DDR and non-DDR.

[TPring]

:xd: More images:

Hopefully that helps -- Let me know if more specific pics are needed. No cracks, breaks or identifiable die gouges/scratches.

[Petespockets55]

Well... for markers I think I see curving die scratches between the right wheat tip and the rim in the right wheat tip image.
Some similar die scratches by the date, just before the field rises to the rim. Also a long one between the point of the bust and the rim.
Full reverse seems to show a gouge from the base of the left wheat stem going west and ending between the top of the stem and the rim.
A die dot south of the lower wheat seeds, just below the outside line.

See if any of the markers match WDDO-015.
(http://doubleddie.com/287322.html)
Looks like yours may have E-W die scratches between STATES and ERICA like DD images.

[TPring]

See if any of the markers match WDDO-015.
(http://doubleddie.com/287322.html)
Looks like yours may have E-W die scratches between STATES and ERICA like DD images.

Thank you.

Not seeing a WDDO-15 -- Guessing you meant WDDR-15, but that is a Class 2 so I am a bit confused.

I see on another site (https://www.coincommunity.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=349081&SearchTerms=1909,ddr) that you found a marker other than what is on the main three sites. Is there another source for these?

[centMD]

Your coin is not WDDR-015. The doubling is much stronger on yours and is class 6. From your photos this die likely cannot be definitively identified right now.

I have a project I'm working on trying to classify all 1909 DDR coins. I have around 300 examples of 1909 DDR coins (obviously with mostly duplicates). If I ever complete that project, you should have many more dies to check your coin against.

Dan

[jfines69]

Oaky, here are some more images:




I do not see that reverse marker on mine and the two markers on the obverse are found on many 1909 coins: VDB, non-VDB, DDR and non-DDR.



Thanks for the follow up pics... Did you go thru Wexlers (http://doubleddie.com/287322.html) real good... He has 21 DDRs listed and there are several that look close to yours... I wasn't able to match markers as your pics appear washed out... I will take another look later as it could be my graphics card out of wack again!!!

[Petespockets55]

Thank you.

Not seeing a WDDO-15 -- Guessing you meant WDDR-15, but that is a Class 2 so I am a bit confused.

I see on another site (https://www.coincommunity.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=349081&SearchTerms=1909,ddr) that you found a marker other than what is on the main three sites. Is there another source for these?
Thanks T.
You are correct on at least 2 points. :LOL_Hair: I did mean DDR and I should have confirmed the class. I was rushing and noticed the gouges between the field and rim above URIBUS and similar die scratch above ICA on 015 in Wexlers images. I should have taken more time to confirm the class.
Thanks for bringing up that other thread but that was for DDR-012. And that additional marker I imaged was on the coin. Are you thinking your coin might be DDR-012?


Your coin is not WDDR-015. The doubling is much stronger on yours and is class 6. From your photos this die likely cannot be definitively identified right now.

I have a project I'm working on trying to classify all 1909 DDR coins. I have around 300 examples of 1909 DDR coins (obviously with mostly duplicates). If I ever complete that project, you should have many more dies to check your coin against.

Dan
Thanks Dan, our "09 DDR Guru", for chiming in with tantalizing info on his project.

[TPring]

Thanks for bringing up that other thread but that was for DDR-012. And that additional marker I imaged was on the coin. Are you thinking your coin might be DDR-012?


Thanks Dan, our "09 DDR Guru", for chiming in with tantalizing info on his project..


No, it is not DDR-12. In that thread you stated that your coin was EDS, but the VV (http://www.varietyvista.com/01a%20LC%20Doubled%20Dies%20Vol%201/1909PDDR012.htm) website only has pics/markers for stage B and did not list that marker. I was just wondering if you used some other source for your attribution.

My coin, I am thinking, is either WDDR-21 [but later stage than Wexler lists] or, worst case, I may never know. I state that only because of the similar shapes of the two EPU dots and a single, very weak die gouge in the C of CENT [or it's just a coincidence].



Yes, that is quite the task Dan has committed to -- We may need to pull Will off of his "'09-S Die" project and reassign him to help out with this.

[Petespockets55]

At this point, I can't remember my exact reference but it appears I may have used the lack of die flow lines between the left wheat tip and the rim as my basis for the EDS claim on that thread. The coin in the VV listing is my coin as well but I don't think I was organized enough (and still am not :tinysmile_hmm_t:) to refer to that coin for other markers.

[jfines69]

.


No, it is not DDR-12. In that thread you stated that your coin was EDS, but the VV (http://www.varietyvista.com/01a%20LC%20Doubled%20Dies%20Vol%201/1909PDDR012.htm) website only has pics/markers for stage B and did not list that marker. I was just wondering if you used some other source for your attribution.

My coin, I am thinking, is either WDDR-21 [but later stage than Wexler lists] or, worst case, I may never know. I state that only because of the similar shapes of the two EPU dots and a single, very weak die gouge in the C of CENT [or it's just a coincidence].



Yes, that is quite the task Dan has committed to -- We may need to pull Will off of his "'09-S Die" project and reassign him to help out with this.
You may be on to WDDR-021??? Your pics are a little to washed out for me to do a good match on markers!!!

[centMD]

Keep in mind you should photograph the wheat stems close up. The thickness varies quite a bit between dies and can be helpful in ruling out some. I think this one falls in the "pending further workup" pile for now. If you manage to see any markers make sure to photograph them and share them here!

Dan