1909-S (No VDB) Real?

[Guest]

Greetings all!

First let me say this group has been EXTREMELY helpful while becoming interested in numismatics, specifically the Lincoln Cent.

So my Mom shared her collection with me and I've been examining each coin as it is in a whitman folder (still debating whether to transfer the coins into 2x2's) During my examination I saw her 1909 S cent that looks a little (ok alot) damaged. On the obverse there is a "hole" in the "0" and the reverse someone scratched haphazardly the initials V.D.B. into it.

I'm looking for your opinion if this is a fake/altered date or just damaged and defaced? Regardless it is definitely a curiosity and was acquired in that condition by my Mom in pocket change when she was a kid.

Thanks for your feedback in advance!

(Oh and I apologize about the watermark - I forgot to turn it off when exporting from lightroom and it's 3:28 AM and I'm not re-exporting it lol)

[amosamos16]

Some knucklehead scratched the initials on the back of a 09 s in a attempt to
Make it look like a svdb. They probably didn't know the 09 s, itself is a valuable coin. Maybe it was a kid many years ago. It's a shame. Post a pic, but that's what it's sounds like.

[coppercoins]

It's really not possible to tell if a coin is genuine or counterfeit without at least seeing a good photo.

[RWBILLER]

Welcome to LCR!

[keelonzo]

Sorry - I guess LCR doesn't like my version of firefox. Here are the pics!

[pman860507]

I'm my opinion the S doesnt looks right, cant even see the V.D.B.

I'm not a master at anything coin. so chances are I'm wrong.

[keelonzo]

I'm my opinion the S doesnt looks right, cant even see the V.D.B.

I'm not a master at anything coin. so chances are I'm wrong.

It's definitely NOT VDB, however I want to know if it is an S or just a fake. Thanks for looking!

[Maineman750]

There is so much damage I would be afraid to guess...but even if it is authentic...the damage lowers the value so much, I think it really doesn't matter...just my two cents

[coop]

The mint mark is the wrong shape. Here are some images of the 1909-S VDB positions, but note images 5 & 6 on this collage:

[pman860507]

.... Hey coop I dont see any pictures.

[keelonzo]

The mint mark is the wrong shape. Here are some images of the 1909-S VDB positions, but note images 5 & 6 on this collage:

I've seen a couple of these guides peppered throughout the net, BUT, it raises an additional question. Were the same dies used for the "non-vdb" versions of the coin? Giving it quick thought with the resources they had at the time I would assume that the same "S Mint" Dies would be used for the obverse because that side of the coin remained the same.

Oh well. I'll keep it in the book as a filler for when I acquire the genuine article.

Ooh ooh... one more thing. I know this question should probably be asked elsewhere and if it is such a drastic violation please let me know, BUT - If I have a coin that looks "proof-like," but has no "pinwheel" mint luster I am to assume that it has been cleaned?

Thanks again!

[rlm's cents]

No, they did not use the same dies for the VDB as they did for the non-VDB. However, they did used the same punch for the mintmark. In fact they used it until 1916 (and on all San Francisco minted coins in that era I believe). http://www.lincolncentresource.com/S...rk_Styles.html What coop is trying to show you is that your "S" does not look like the "S" used for his pictures. The positions for the non-VDB coin will be different than those he has pictured.

BTW, you "prooflike" sounds like it has been polished.

[RWBILLER]

Hi
Looking at that coin - just makes me feel something is wrong, but it certainly a conversation piece.

[Maineman750]

I've gotta admit I'm amazed that you guys can id a mint mark that's smashed flatter than a pancake...I can barely discern the 0

[keelonzo]

Thank you to everyone who weighed in!

Especially rlm's cents! Very insightfull...

you folks might have opened pandora's box of questions as I capture more images.


BTW --- From which direction is it best to light from? The ones above were all 45 degrees to camera right and about 15 degrees from the surface of the coin. I'm using a Sony a700 with a 300mm Quantaray POS 5000(but it has a macro function), Nikon SB 28 Strobe(s) only used one for the images though. I'm using off camera flash so I can put it wherever I need to create the best environment for the details to be discerned.

The settings were 1/4 power from 3 feet for the flash and ISO 100 1/15 shutter speed @ f27

If there are any threads that tackle this please point me in the proper direction.


THANKS AGAIN!!