Need some help understanding the grading process

[VAB2013]

Sorry to admit this but grading is an area that even though I have studied it... I still don't understand a lot of it.

My level of understanding really consists of the terminology... it's a pretty Lincoln, it's pretty rough, and it's real rough looking

I got even more frustrated with my lack of knowledge while gathering up Lincoln's for the "Ed System" and now it's to the point where I need to start understanding this. I'm hoping that Ed will chime in and help!

For instance... I really don't understand the criteria for AU - About Uncirculated

then I guess leveling up from least desirable to most desirable it would be AU - BU - MS

The "Grading Guide" says that TPG's give copper cents a color designation. So does that mean that zinc's are not given a color designation?

I know I have too many questions, I just think that I have used the term MS inappropriately when it's probably an AU or BU and I want to start understanding the differences

Thank you for your patience reading this and your comments!

[Petespockets55]

Viv, Red is used for Zinc cents as well. You may be familiar with the PCGS web site. It lists Brown, Red/Brown and red for copper as well as zincs.
PCGS LINK .

I've always considered MS and BU as uncirculated. (Mint State and Bright Uncirculated)
Mint State can be brown, Red/Brown or full red. I've always used Bright Uncirculated only for full red coins.

With AU coins you can usually see some wear on the high points of the coin, which can actually look dull at those areas. I try to look at the tops of the letters and date for sins of wear on AU coins

As far as coming up with a numerical grade the grading companies have trouble being consistent. It is supposed to be determined by the number of nicks and scratches on a coin.
We've all come across graded coins that leave us scratching our heads.

[GrumpyEd]

AU - BU - MS

Not really, AU is like almost an unc. BU is sort of an outdated term meaning a nice "brilliant unc" then they said better ones were "choice BU" but after TPG grading those terms aren't really useful.

The reason I say not really is BU and MS, your order is off. BU means a brilliant unc. MS only means it is in the MS grades MS60 to MS70 so an MS60 can be a pretty ugly but still unc but a BU should be pretty nice but like I said... the general terms unc, choice unc, BU choice BU are pretty much the old terminology replaced by the grading with numbers where it starts with low numbers like 3 is like AG, then 70 is perfect and the 50s are AU, the 60s-70 are MS.

[VAB2013]

Viv, Red is used for Zinc cents as well. You may be familiar with the PCGS web site. It lists Brown, Red/Brown and red for copper as well as zincs.
PCGS LINK .

I've always considered MS and BU as uncirculated. (Mint State and Bright Uncirculated)
Mint State can be brown, Red/Brown or full red. I've always used Bright Uncirculated only for full red coins.

With AU coins you can usually see some wear on the high points of the coin, which can actually look dull at those areas. I try to look at the tops of the letters and date for sins of wear on AU coins

As far as coming up with a numerical grade the grading companies have trouble being consistent. It is supposed to be determined by the number of nicks and scratches on a coin.
We've all come across graded coins that leave us scratching our heads.

Thank you Cliff! I'm reading and trying to absorb! I'm getting what AU means now... still a little confused about BU and MS

[VAB2013]

Not really, AU is like almost an unc. BU is sort of an outdated term meaning a nice "brilliant unc" then they said better ones were "choice BU" but after TPG grading those terms aren't really useful.

The reason I say not really is BU and MS, your order is off. BU means a brilliant unc. MS only means it is in the MS grades MS60 to MS70 so an MS60 can be a pretty ugly but still unc but a BU should be pretty nice but like I said... the general terms unc, choice unc, BU choice BU are pretty much the old terminology replaced by the grading with numbers where it starts with low numbers like 3 is like AG, then 70 is perfect and the 50s are AU, the 60s-70 are MS.

Thank you Ed! So BU is out of the equation. That leaves AG with numbers up to 49, then the 50's are AU and 60-70's are MS... How can a MS60 be ugly?

[GrumpyEd]

How can a MS60 be ugly?

Easily, it's sort of a trashed unc, it has no wear but it has enough wrong to reduce the grade a lot, like a 63 is a typical unc from a roll so a 60 is a dog but still has no real wear.

So.... you see how PCGS has that certain set called everymans or something... it's like the best coins below unc grades.
Because of that people fight over those AU 58s to get the perfect set.

In reality it makes sense, a 58 is the best circ coin you can get, like spotless evenly toned brown cent with the slightest wear. A nice coin.

A 60 might be in the unc grades but it's the worst coin with no wear, it might have ugly toning, some ugly spots but still no wear.

Wouldn't you rater have the best circ with no issues than the worst dog of the unc grades?
So, the 60 might not be as nice as the 58, the 60 has no wear but it's a dog, the 58 has tiny wear, rub on the ear but it's really the top quality circ grade.

[VAB2013]

Thank you Ed! This is great information and now I'm beginning to get it! So, would you recommend I look more at TPG's graded slabs to get used to seeing the difference, or is there something else?

[GrumpyEd]

Yes looking at slabs will help but be aware that the dates matter. Certain things don't really get graded by the same rules. Like 22P cents you can't go by the wheat lines, like 32-D and 32-S quarters often grade (IMHO) high for how they look but other quarters seem to grade lower than they look. Look at enough stuff and you get a feel for it.

[jfines69]

Wish I could help... All I can do is guess!!!

[WaterSport]

Viv - when you asked about Zincs - I was thinking as in 1943 ??? If thats what you were thinking - they are only graded as a straight MS, AU, etc. No Color designations.

As far as understanding grading - ITS NOT EASY!!! To complicate matters now, TPG's are grading more lack now than 10 years ago. But the basics are the same. Before you can understand the Difference between MS 64 and MS 63, may I suggest you conquer the difference in the 3 AU grades and MS. After that, the scale in my opinion is easier to get. But always remember, this is not an exact science, its subjective. Posting phots is not going to make it easier either as the coin in a graders hand influences the grade. So focus on the AU's and the rest will come easier. Also the hardest Lincolns to grade - 1922 and then just about any 1920's cent.

WS

[VAB2013]

Thank you Bob! I was asking about the color designation for zincs because I have been looking at slabbed zincs, not many of them on ebay, but several on great collections.... and all of them are RD (Red) but today I found a couple on GC's that are RB, and on PCGS all of them are RD except for a few RB but no pics of those. Before I found these today I was beginning to wonder if all slabbed zincs were just given the RD designation. Also... PCGS has some shown as Red that look brown to me??

Also, I appreciate your advice and will just study AU's and MS's for awhile. That gives me a good starting point because it is confusing!

[GrumpyEd]

Viv,

Color has nothing to do with being plated zinc or copper. They all get RD, RB, BN other than 1943s because they only get grades since they never were red.

It has nothing to do with which TPG, they all use the same designations.

The reason you only saw RD for modern zinc cent listings is because nobody would waste money grading a common modern that isn't a high grade RD (why spend $20-50 grading a coin of no value) so the graded ones are almost all RD but with varieties people get them graded even if not red.

Look at the PCGS price guide and numbering system, take as an example 1972.
They have 3 coin numbers, one for each color:

2951 BN
2952 RB
2953 RD

Then they show pops in each grade for each color...

Then they repeat for 1972 DDOs since it has a coin number (you can get graded at normal price)

[GrumpyEd]

Link to the guide:

https://www.pcgs.com/prices/priceguidedetail.aspx?c=47&title=lincoln+cent+(modern)

[VAB2013]

Thank you Ed for the explanation and link. I was looking for zinc varieties, not just zinc's. Now on the link you posted I am seeing some zincs that are RB, and a couple that are BN. I have a lot of zincs in my Ed System and I was trying to start with those while looking at grading information, but zincs have so many issues, maybe I should start with the copper ones?

[GrumpyEd]

I should mention to avoid confusion...

They normally do not list color on grades below MS grades (so you won't see colors listed on low grades or AUs).
I think I've seen a few AUs with color listed but assume those were mistakes on labels, I've even seen 1943 cents were they said RD but those are mistakes.

Another weird fact about color and grade is, the grade should not change based on color, a spotless coin could be MS70RD or MS70BN and in theory if the only thing different is color (both coins no wear/perfect) they should get the same grade. BUT, the weird fact is it's rare to see copper get above 66 in brown and almost unheard of to get 67 or above in brown.
I'm not sure if it's because coins that turn brown are less likely to be perfect or maybe it's just bias.