New revelation

[willbrooks]

Here I am, making trouble again. So, I had mentioned a couple of weeks ago that I came across something very interesting. After some in-depth study and Ray's magic camera, we are now virtually certain that I am correct about it.
In the November Coin World monthly, I had an article about the defective Mint mark punch, San Francisco MMS-009 used on business strike cents in 1974 and on proofs up until 1979. This punch was a mess right off the bat in 1974 and very quickly deteriorated into a "blob" by 1977. Since all of the specimens I examined had the same defects, I concluded that the punch must have been made with the defects. I have since discovered that I wasn't entirely correct about that. I looked at so many of these 1974S, that this punch's nuances and characteristics were ingrained in my mind's eye. So, a couple of weeks ago, I was looking at a 1942S, and I nearly hit the floor, because there, right in front of me. was the same Mint mark, only without the split on the upper serif and curl! That's right, I believe MMS-004 and MMS-009 are one and the same. It suddenly makes sense why this punch looked like *** in 1974. That's because it had already been extensively used for over a decade in the 40s and 50s. It sat around for 22 more years, and suddenly made a reappearance, when MMS-008 got pulled for some reason in the middle of 1974. Anyway, after I get this all written up and submitted for publication, I will ask Ray if I may share some of his photos here. I will also inform Dr. Wiles of our findings.

[makecents]

So the mint hung on to an old punch and started re-using it? That's crazy!! Extremely cool and a great epiphany though Will, congrats!!

[mustbebob]

Now that's pretty interesting stuff. I can't wait to see your report on it!

[VAB2013]

A very interesting paradigm shift Will! Can't wait to hear more about your findings and get to see Ray's awesome photos! Here's a link to Variety Vista SF MM's so folks can see what the MMS-004 and MMS-009 look like.

[GrumpyEd]

That is amazing!

I always wondered why the mint didn't buy like a dozen of the same punch so they never changed?
Or if they make the punches?
Or if in the punches styles were sort of used as a security feature.

It reminds me of at work when there would be one tool everyone shared because there never where enough of them, but it's so odd that it seems the mint often had one punch in use for a long time and wasn't eager to swap them or didn't have a spare on hand even when they got messed up.

[willbrooks]

That is amazing!

I always wondered why the mint didn't buy like a dozen of the same punch so they never changed?
Or if they make the punches?
Or if in the punches styles were sort of used as a security feature.

It reminds me of at work when there would be one tool everyone shared because there never where enough of them, but it's so odd that it seems the mint often had one punch in use for a long time and wasn't eager to swap them or didn't have a spare on hand even when they got messed up.

I thought the very same thing. Mint mark "style" doesn't necessarily mean the same exact punch, but I believe that they did actually use the same punch to do all of the dies. I was having fun imagining the possible scenarios. Like the MMS8 broke and they were stuck and the custodian says, "hey, there is one of those things over here in the broom closet." Lol. Or maybe it was used for training during the interim. We can only guess.

[makecents]

I thought the very same thing. Mint mark "style" doesn't necessarily mean the same exact punch, but I believe that they did actually use the same punch to do all of the dies. I was having fun imagining the possible scenarios. Like the MMS8 broke and they were stuck and the custodian says, "hey, there is one of those things over here in the broom closet." Lol. Or maybe it was used for training during the interim. We can only guess.

It's funny you say that. I actually pictured a huge junk drawer, (you know they have one) and an old punch got pushed to the back of it, a few decades later somebody was cleaning it out and bam, it's back!!

[GrumpyEd]

It's funny you say that. I actually pictured a huge junk drawer, (you know they have one) and an old punch got pushed to the back of it, a few decades later somebody was cleaning it out and bam, it's back!!

And that's what they're relying on to ship dies, not only cent dies. They often used the same punch for other denominations.
They even used the same punches on foreign coins. You might even find that same punch on something else like an S mint Philippines coin from the 40s??? This is why I can't imagine that the mint didn't have spares or multiples on hand.

[WaterSport]

Well you can't say the mint was wasting any tax dollars thats for sure. Great study Will.

WS

[willbrooks]

And that's what they're relying on to ship dies, not only cent dies. They often used the same punch for other denominations.
They even used the same punches on foreign coins. You might even find that same punch on something else like an S mint Philippines coin from the 40s??? This is why I can't imagine that the mint didn't have spares or multiples on hand.

This is worth looking into. You wanna be a contributor?

[willbrooks]

This is worth looking into. You wanna be a contributor?

It would be particularly interesting if we could find it on foreign coin in the 50s, 60s, or early 70s!

[makecents]

I did like Ed suggested and went through all my foreign coins and only found one S mm, unfortunately it was what looks to be an MMS-006.

[willbrooks]

I did like Ed suggested and went through all my foreign coins and only found one S mm, unfortunately it was what looks to be an MMS-006.

And that's what they're relying on to ship dies, not only cent dies. They often used the same punch for other denominations.
They even used the same punches on foreign coins. You might even find that same punch on something else like an S mint Philippines coin from the 40s??? This is why I can't imagine that the mint didn't have spares or multiples on hand.

I found this checklist. According to this, there were just a few from the early 40s with an S, which doesn't really advance our study at all.

https://libertycoinservice.com/wp-content/uploads/learning-center/collectors-checklist-foreign-coins-by-us-mint-type.pdf

[makecents]

I found this checklist. According to this, there were just a few from the early 40s with an S, which doesn't really advance our study at all.
https://libertycoinservice.com/wp-co...-mint-type.pdf

That is an impressive overall list though, I had no clue, thanks for posting the link. I know it does not help but here is my find.


I have a bunch more foreign coins somewhere, just need to find them. I'll post if I come up with your mm.

[willbrooks]

I did like Ed suggested and went through all my foreign coins and only found one S mm, unfortunately it was what looks to be an MMS-006.

And that's what they're relying on to ship dies, not only cent dies. They often used the same punch for other denominations.
They even used the same punches on foreign coins. You might even find that same punch on something else like an S mint Philippines coin from the 40s??? This is why I can't imagine that the mint didn't have spares or multiples on hand.

That is an impressive overall list though, I had no clue, thanks for posting the link. I know it does not help but here is my find.

That's still really neat to see the ole ball serif on a foreign coin! Thanks for posting it. It could have just as easily been the trumpet tail.