What is "FMV"?

[liveandievarieties]

I've heard the term Fair Market Value used a few times. This caused my gears to start turning in my 24/7 racing mind.
I've learned far more from reading and listening to others than I have telling. So I'm very curious to hear other's perspectives.

-How do you determine what's fair, when you're buying or selling a variety that's NOT in a "price guide"? OR without any researchable price histories at all?
-IF it is in a price guide, should that be used as a factor in determining value? (Sometimes, Usually, Always?) Why? (this isn't as simple a question as it seems).
-Overall, how do you attain "fairness" when someone asks you what YOU'D pay for it?

I know nearly everyone here is passionate about their collecting love, and for that reason, these questions eat many of us alive. Like aliens from the inside!

These aren't answers I'm searching for, it took some time dealing full-time to hammer out answers to these internal conflicts. I've gotten a lot figured out since the last table I waited on. But I am amazed every day at the volume of useful experience that's freely offered here. Thank you all. I'd love to hear other's experiences, anyone?

[copperlover]

Here is a link explaining the difference of CMV and FMV . I have been thinking about these two. Let me know what you take away from this article. Let your conscience be your guide.

Lucien

http://www.ehow.com/how_4609279_calculate-fair-market-value_.html

[liveandievarieties]

Is this what you use Lucien? I'm not exactly looking for "answers", I figured out what I needed to as a buyer/seller some time back, but I'm certainly interested in your own perspective. I enjoy stimulating discourse.

[hasfam]

Very interesting topic and I'm afraid I could take up a lot of space in this post discussing the philosophies of FMV as a buyer or seller especially when it comes to collectibles or what I consider as yet to be determined potential collectibles. My wife and I have been avid collectors for almost 40 years. Coins, Vintage childrens books, Sports cards, Antique toys etc. We owned a sports cards shop 20 years ago, as well as an antique/thrift type store specializing in vinatge toys. We've been power sellers on ebay for several years as well. Although I have had a passion for Lincoln cents for the entire time, our real expertise falls in the vintage children's books such as Little Golden Books. I know we have had a profound influence up on the pricing structure on line and ebay in this area due to the sheer volume of sales over the past 15 years. Before our stores and the internet we sold our toys around the world using 1/2 page newspaper ads in the ToyShop newspaper.
The rhetorical questions you raise really hit home. We have always been collectors 1st and sellers 2nd which influences some decisions. When we are in business then we must find that happy medium of being able to buy low enough and far enough ahead to be able to profit but still pay enough of a fair price that will motivate people to come back to sell to us again. Finding quality collectible product to sell week after week is a real challenge. If you buy too cheap and sell too high, your business will dry up real fast. As a collector, I will pay a little more for what i want, because its going in my collection on my shelf. I am usually pretty aware of whats going on in the market with the things i collect so I seldom overpay. But, if I believe something has not yet hit the streets in full force yet, then i might pay more in order to invest for future increases. In some areas, I didn't follow a price guide as much as I created the price guide myself. Ironically, one day my wife and I were in an antique mall and brought a few vintage golden books we wanted to buy for our store up to the desk to get prices. The person got on the computer and got online. i ask what she was doing and she said they look the prices up on line. They were looking at our prices online to determine the selling price. We were our own victims. We were honored but obviously didn't buy the books. As far as what is Fair, well that can change from day to day, depending on supply, demand and what you have to pay for it today and again tomorrow. $5.00 is fair today, $10 is fair tomorrow. As a collector i have told a private seller selling something to me that they are cheating themselves out of a fair price. I could have bought it for pennies on the dollar but why? Its only worth what I pay for it. i don't believe in cheating people either especially if they are selling collections to pay bills.
I know this post has gone way too long and I'm sure nobody will read this far down. its really a hard topic to talk about in writing, but would love to have this conversation over a coffee or a nice glass of wine.

[liveandievarieties]

Very cool Rock. I read EVERY word! Some folks may not like long posts, but for me, if the topic warrants it, there's never too much informed opinion.

Much of what you related are sentiments that I hold, only through trial, error and experience.

If you're ever in the Northwest, let me buy the first glass. Thanks my friend, -CW.

[lara4228]

Interesting.

[copperlover]

Rock that was great, and if any of you ever come to MD/DC or VA then let me know. I would have this discussion over a glass.

I saw that Lara was interested. Only experience can teach us. Thanks for sharing. I am sorry I did not have the personal experience to share but I did learn something from this post.

Lucien

[jfines69]

As always I enjoy a good conversation even when it is between other people... I know not enough of this subject to inject my opinion but please keep it coming... I have a mind like a sponge... It leaks alot... LOL!!!

[kloccwork419]

FMV = Numismedia prices.

http://www.numismedia.com/

They have a dealer and collector price guide

http://www.numismedia.com/fmv/fmv.shtml

[amosamos16]

this is a fun topic, i have collected coins in one way shape or form for 50 years or so. so whats a fair price for a coin? the answer is what are you willing to pay for it to add it to your collection. everyone has a price in there head of whats its worth and what its worth to them, you balance that out and buy or not buy.

[liveandievarieties]

Truth be told, I know the 20th century Die Variety market better than any book or price guide. I'm not bragging, I'm attempting to illustrate a point. One can't always depend on consulting a price guide. What about a 1947-S/D FS-501 in MS-66? There's only ONE graded by PCGS. To some, that's a VERY expensive coin when it sells this weekend, to me? I bought it from a well known E/V specialist, he graded it an MS-62, when I received it, I saw an MS-64, when PCGS got it, they had just sniffed a new bottle of glue, were giddy and saw an MS-66!
Sure, there are price guides who will throw down values up to MS-68 or better, but these price guides aren't pricing real coins, based on real market values. They're fantasy prices for coins that don't exist (at least not in TPG holders).
I've got a fantastic struck fragment of a 1966 Lincoln that came out of an OBW- I'll post photos later, but there is NO price guide that will inform you on real values of a piece like this.
I'm not asking for assistance with a price guide- I don't use those.
What IS cool is hearing how others think on the subject. I love hearing different perspectives, even if they're on the opposite end of the spectrum.

Many coins are well suited to be graded and priced categorically, even Die Varieties are squished into this mold. On eBay, I am top bidder for anything I want- I nearly always win what I intend to. Often these prices exceed "price guide" values. But I don't lose money on the coins I buy, because I take them to a different market. A coin can sell on eBay for $100, but in a different company's auction, same coin can fetch $450. What is your price guide telling you now?

No offense to anyone who has commented, I'm not saying there is a right or wrong- just interested in hearing more than what a spreadsheet has to say. Thanks everybody, have a Great Weekend! -Chris Welch.

[hasfam]

Very true regarding different prices for different markets. If I set up a booth to sell tools in front of a bank I might get pennies on the dollar if I sell hard. But if I set the booth up in front of a construction site, I sell fast at top dollar. There is something else I have observed over the last 15 years and that is the huge way the internet plays a part in all this. It seems that there are so many people who want to be a dealers now. A coin or some other collectible might change hands in the market several times before an actual collector gets it and places it in there permanent collection. Personally, I have made some of my best buys from people who greedily buy with the hopes of a quick and profitable turn around, but gets stuck with it. Then when the cash flow dries up they dump it, and I'm there to buy it up. If you know your market, you have an advantage. if you create your market you have a greater advantage.

[liveandievarieties]

If you know your market, you have an advantage. if you create your market you have a greater advantage.

Incredibly well said. I have met "market makers" in several areas of coins and exonumia- absolutely nothing to do with Die Varieties. But I have picked their brains and learned their perspective, then applied those truths to my own business. As a result, I can tell you which $500 21st century die variety will be worth $1500 in less than 2 years. I believe I could learn a wealth of knowledge from you on your market Rock, I'm an antique picker too. Thank you.

[kloccwork419]

Well you asked what this "FMV" is that you keep seeing thats what it is. It a Numismedia price guide, like it or not, whether anyone goes by it or not is on the person.

[amosamos16]

i agree fully kloccwork!