VDB DDO & R at the same time?

**simonm** · 01-08-2011, 06:54 PM

I do not see the evidence of notching, as is present on a doubled die. The anomaly is shelflike, whereas a true doubled die is a full doubling of the image, i.e. a second set of letters. In the photograph above, I see that the "B", if the doubling were to be erased, would not be the correct size for that letter, so the shelf on it is a continuation of the letter itself, due to the machine doubling. Sorry if my explanation isn't clear, I wanted to make a sound argument

**mustbebob** · 01-08-2011, 07:35 PM

First off, welcome to the forum. Arguments and debates sometimes get very heated here, so why don't we just call it a discussion. For future reference, resize your photos with your photo editing software. It would enable you to set up your posts easier. OK??
I understand your question perfectly. The term machine doubling can mean many things, and it has caused confusion at times. There is no doubt in my mind that the picture you show of the B in PLURIBUS is machine doubling. The fact that it may have a twin somewhere is not too difficult to explain. If the collar or die is loose during the striking progress, variants of the same machine doubled coin will occur, and since we are talking thousands and thousands of strikes, it is easy to see that some may look very similar. We are also talking about hundreds or thousands of dies used each year, so even random machine doubling can be duplicated.
Hub doubling and machine doubling are very different and have different appearances, and diagnostics. Simonm made reference above to one odd the diagnostics used.
You also mentioned that you haven't seen others, but bear in mind that even the 1909 VDB had a mintage of almost 28 million, so your sampling size is real small compared to what is out there.

**kloccwork419** · 01-08-2011, 07:37 PM

Yep. Machine Doubling. Its really not exactly the same but very similar MD on both. I actually have a VDB DDR
How in the world did you take them pix? BEAUTIFUL!
Looks like Heritage took them. Amazing. If I could get take a pic that big and clear, I would take one of EVERY coin I have!!!

O..And WELCOME!!!

**DoubleYou** · 01-08-2011, 07:51 PM

Beautiful coins and beautiful pictures (although the pictures of the doubling might be somewhat overkill).

I think most of the forum will agree that there is no debate here, as it displays all the classic diagnostics of MD.

Oh, and I love the obverse doubling on both the coins. They both show up very well even without closeups

Wendell

**jcuve** · 01-08-2011, 08:53 PM

Welcome to the forum!
Nice coins, pics and DDOs. Most of what needs to be said has been said; I will add one other issue about Machine Doubling (MD). On some varieties, at certain points during the lief of a die, MD can be seen on all examples from that time period and the MD will be very similar. For example: in the CONECA files it is noted that 1971 DDO-001 (FS-101) Stage A (EDS) has "MDD on WE TRUST" whereas Stage B (EMDS or later) does not. I happen to have both stages and the earlier Stage A does indeed have MD(D) conspicuously on WE TRUST. That said, I would imagine that a large sample of these particular DDOs would reveal a certain percentage centered around a die state (or more) that has similar doubling (from MD) as noted in your pics.

**rlarick** · 01-08-2011, 11:35 PM

Thank you everyone very much for the knowledgeable posts.

House keeping first. Mr Moderator..

Originally posted by mustbebob

For future reference, resize your photos with your photo editing software. It would enable you to set up your posts easier. OK??

It was very easy to set up in preview, I just hit enter after each sentence.

I typically upload to photobucket and use IMG tags around the photo location as is the norm for most MB's. What is the optimum pixel size width for this forum? Can you upload photos to an album hosted here? Size limit?

Sorry for the noobness, but it is easier for me to post the question than surf around site learning another MB. Thank you in advance for your most moderate reply.

Originally posted by kloccwork419

How in the world did you take them pix? BEAUTIFUL!Looks like Heritage took them. Amazing. If I could get take a pic that big and clear, I would take one of EVERY coin I have!!!

I run a coin dedicated Canon DSLR with a rigged lens controlled from my computer and Gimp for editing. I only shoot Lincolns. Call me Mr John Wilkes PhotoBooth! Ha! Now I'll have to change my screen name. I have a new lens that should be here any day now.

I image every new purchase now and have been working backwards as I have time. Its so nice and so worth the time. So many advantages/benefits. renaming files is a PITA though.

Originally posted by kloccwork419

I actually have a VDB DDR!

We should talk. I'll try to figure out the PM thingy here.

Originally posted by simonm

I see that the "B", if the doubling were to be erased, would not be the correct size for that letter, so the shelf on it is a continuation of the letter itself, due to the machine doubling. Sorry if my explanation isn't clear, I wanted to make a sound argument

Everyones written explanations make sense and I understand mechanically the difference between a Doubled Die and a loose die which causes the appearance of doubling. What I am have a very difficult time with is, visually discerning the difference. The machine doubling on the reverse is sloppier, the obverse more crisp????, with out getting into side by side comparisons of the few common letters

Originally posted by mustbebob

The fact that it may have a twin somewhere is not too difficult to explain. If the collar or die is loose during the striking progress, variants of the same machine doubled coin will occur, and since we are talking thousands and thousands of strikes,

Yeah ok.. I just think it is tooo tooo coincidental that out of 40 slabbed 09 VDB's I have, that the only coins with reverse machine doubling happen to be DDO's!

Originally posted by mustbebob

You also mentioned that you haven't seen others, but bear in mind that even the 1909 VDB had a mintage of almost 28 million, so your sampling size is real small compared to what is out there.

Agreed. See my comment above. Any Probability Staticians. I am convinced there is more to this story. or hoping

A little more info on this study set I am building. http://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/showcase.aspx?sc=1209 I have a bazillion Lincolns and about a year ago, set off to learn about what I had. One thing led to another and here I am with the decision to pick one coin and build a grading set. That has led me to the much finer points and here. it is quite interesting and there are volumes to learn.

Originally posted by DoubleYou

Oh, and I love the obverse doubling on both the coins. They both show up very well even without closeups

Wendell

Really? I can't see the Obverse Doubling on the first coin. I just take the slabs words for it.

seriously though, the reverse machine doubling certainly looks more uh.. it's a lot more cool IMHO!

Originally posted by jcuve

That said, I would imagine that a large sample of these particular DDOs would reveal a certain percentage centered around a die state (or more) that has similar doubling (from MD) as noted in your pics.

So, I just got dumb luck that out (6) 1909vdb DDO's that 2 of them have reverse doubling and the other 35 no issue vdb's don't.... got it!

In closing, I like Machine Doubling!

**mustbebob** · 01-09-2011, 04:31 AM

It would be difficult to address each of your questions, so I will let some of the others help where needed. A good size for your pictures to be for viewing here on the forum is 500 x 500 pixels. That seems to work pretty well.
I will stick with my comment that just by the sheer number of coins out there from a specific die, that it is not terribly uncommon to find another. Any variety collector who accumulates multiples of the same DDO knows this. I found two 1917 DDOs in the same roll last year. The odds seem astronomical, but it did happen. Sometimes, we can't explain things, but in cases like this, we shouldn't question probability, but accept what we have. If you love the machine doubling as much as it seems here, then that is a wonderful thing!

**jcuve** · 01-09-2011, 05:09 AM

You can totally see the class IV doubling on FS-1101 in your pics (you can see it on ERTY, 19 the bow-tie and some parts of the face); below is a detail of one of mine. FS-1102 is a little harder to understand (and see) being class VI extra thickness on the date and a little in LIBERTY. Most of my pictures I re-size before uploading to Photobucket to be around 500 pixels wide.

Again welcome to the forum!

**simonm** · 01-09-2011, 03:17 PM

Nice DDO find on the 2nd pic!

**rlarick** · 01-09-2011, 04:37 PM

Originally posted by mustbebob

It would be difficult to address each of your questions, so I will let some of the others help where needed. A good size for your pictures to be for viewing here on the forum is 500 x 500 pixels. That seems to work pretty well.

Pretty sure my questions if any were rhetorical.. I do like the machine doubling on the 09 VDB reverse and if anyone comes across any more similar to what I posted please contact me. thanks!

**coinman2009** · 04-01-2011, 04:20 PM

I've got a small collection of these #2 DDO'S Out Of the 13 I have 3 Have The Same type of reverse doubling, I believe they are MDD, But Very Interesting! Nice Pic's, And Great Coin!

**rlarick** · 04-01-2011, 07:20 PM

Originally posted by coinman2009

I've got a small collection of these #2 DDO'S Out Of the 13 I have 3 Have The Same type of reverse doubling, I believe they are MDD, But Very Interesting! Nice Pic's, And Great Coin!

13? THIRTEEN? I thought I was nuts over the VDB http://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/showcase.aspx?sc=1209. Guess not

**RWBILLER** · 04-02-2011, 08:18 AM

welcome to LCR and a really nice ddo to boot!
roger

**coinman2009** · 04-10-2011, 12:24 PM

I've got 13 of the #2's and of those 3 have the same mdd reverse, and one of the#1's with the same, I've got another #2 on the way,I'll let you know a bit later!

VDB DDO & R at the same time?

VDB DDO & R at the same time?

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