Can someone help me with MATTE PROOFS?

[flyhi3]

Hi everybody,
I recently saw a thread about a possible matte proof 1909, and I realized I had no idea how to tell what a matte proof is or looks like, versus a regular Business strike. Can someone please help me? Does any one have picture comparisons or something? Thanks guys for your help,

-Alex

[jallengomez]

Alex,

If you really want to get serious with matte proofs, then I would recommend you pick up this book-

http://www.wizardcoinsupply.com/lincoln-cent-matte-proofs.html

I don't know of any website that contains as much information.

[coppercoins]

Three things to look for in determining a matte proof cent - these are not the ONLY things to look for, but if ALL three do NOT exist, you don't have one...

1. All matte proofs have very sharp edges - look at the difference between the edge of a modern 'normal' cent and a modern proof cent. Even though these are from completely different eras, the idea of the look and feel of the edges is the same. ALL matte proofs have very sharp squared off edges, and most of the business strikes do not.

2. All matte proofs have extremely sharp details. Some business strike cents have sharp details as well, so this alone is not a key judgement factor, but NONE of the matte proofs are lacking at all in detail.

3. Not one single matte proof cent is going to show ANY die wear. Not enough were minted in any given year to show die wear. If ANY die wear is present on your coin, it's a business strike.

There are specific markers for each die used, and the book linked above is a good write-up about them. Once you've met ALL THREE of the basics above, good idea to check the book for markers.

[Roller]

Hi everybody,
I recently saw a thread about a possible matte proof 1909, and I realized I had no idea how to tell what a matte proof is or looks like, versus a regular Business strike. Can someone please help me? Does any one have picture comparisons or something? Thanks guys for your help,

-Alex

Glad you asked this question Alex. I recently picked up a '55 because of the "matte" appearance that I just eliminated on account of Chuck's tutorial. However, what about a proof that might have found its way into circulation and the sharpness of rim and design got a bit worn down? I guess you go to the markers.

[coppercoins]

Okay...matte proofs were ONLY made from 1909-1916. A 'Satin proof' was issued in 1936 along side a mirror finish 'brilliant' proof. ALL other Lincoln cent proofs are mirror shiny with or without the cameo effect, and were made from 1936-1942, and 1950 to date. The 'without cameo' are generally all prior to 1972.

So ALL 1955 proofs are mirror shiny. Those that have been in circulation will be mirror shiny with scratches. Being in circulation will NOT change the strike type of the coin, nor will it change the fact that ALL proofs have very squared, very sharp edges.

Added: Debatable is the notion that matte proofs were also (unofficially) made in 1917. Some believe it, some don't.

[WaterSport]

MPL even fool the dealers. There is only a bit of evidence that some business strike 1910 cents may have been used with Matte dies. But this may also be master die issues. Regardless you have to get the book and a coin in hand to see and know that there is a big difference between a MPL and business strike cent. From time -to-time some very nicely hammered business strike cents are found and folks swear they are proofs but it’s all about the rims. Full, wide, square and never soft or round because of the extra pressure used for striking. And they must be 100% all the way around the coin, and not just sharp on the obv and not on the rev. Finding one for under $500 can be a challenge and will be low grade or cleaned. Expect to pay $700 to $1200 for the high mintage ones (4000 – 2300 made) and for the 1915 $2500 and the 1916 $4000 and up. The 1909 VDB is the most valuable with most selling above $17,000 because of its debated low mintage of 420 – 1100. Warning – if you pursue these magical proofs, you will get hooked. Many are very colorful as the mint shipped them and thus folks kept them stored in high sulfur content tissue paper. This is my 1916. Notice the detail, matte (sand blasted finish) and sharp contrast of all features. Hold up a new cent next to this picture and ask yourself if they did justice to the original art work of Brenner.

[WaterSport]

I checked that Kevin Flynns book on MPL's which sells on Amazon is about $32.00. Its the most single up to date resource for all info on the Matte Proofs. But there is a cheaper alternative and one everyone can afford. Its called Counterfeit Detection A Reprint from the Numismatist Its a paper back originally printed in 1983 and originally sold for $9.95. But you can sometimes find them on Ebay, or do a used book search. Amazon has a couple, and a couple for $150 - go figure. Anyway, do your searches and get one. Besides covering fake SVDB's and 14 D's, Etc. It has a whole chapter on Matte Proof Lincoln Diagnostics.

WS

[kloccwork419]

I can look at that coin all day. Beautiful!!!

[flyhi3]

Thanks everybody! That is VERY helpful! You are making it hard on me to choose the best answer LOL!

[liveandievarieties]

Ultimately Alex- you're just going to have to buy the book! We have somewhere in the range of 40+ volumes of reference books, always looking to add more.

We actually just picked up the Matte Proof book last month from Wizzard coin supply while in Chicago- I'd recommend it, it's a good book. I think we paid less than $20. Of course, it goes without saying- if you are able to pick a matte proof as a regular coin (it does happen, even on eBay), the book will more than pay for itself many times over the first time you're successful!

[Brad]

Just as a side note. I have seen a 1913 business strike will all the die markers of a matte proof. I showed it to the ANACS graders and Larry Briggs. They all agree that it was a business strike struck with proof dies.

[Brad]

Warning – if you pursue these magical proofs, you will get hooked.

I totally agree. I have six of them in my personal collection and the other 3 are on the top of my want list. The 1909 VDB is my most wanted Lincoln. I am going to cherry pick one....I hope!

[WaterSport]

Brad there has been more than one cherry picked off Ebay, I think most recently, a 1911. So Go for it!!

WS

[Roller]

I now wish Alex had not started this thread. I'm thinking a bout matt proofs all the time.

[ilikecoinsalot]

hello all Im a bit confused if a cent is struck with proof dies wouldnt it be a proof cent?