Dropped Letters

[CoinHELP]

I first was certain this was an example of Dropped Letters, but maineman suggested I posted it here to get more input. The letters do look like the IN, but they have a couple of contact marks that confuse the eye. Any input is appreciated.

[mikediamond]

Since these character impressions occur only on a high-relief portion of the design, these too would be contact marks. It looks like a backward 1 next to an M. If so, this would not be from a cent.

[willbrooks]

Going by the shadows, these look incuse. Is that correct?

[CoinHELP]

Yes, they're incuse. The I does look like a 1, but that leg off the I is the contact mark, you can see a little metal push or lip along the north rim of this so-called leg. The middle slant of the N is congruent to the N on this cent, but it seems partially missing in the low relief area of the shoulder.

I am not sure what is meant by "since this only occurs on the high-relief portion of the design" I have seen dropped letters on various areas of a design. I am not sure how that would matter if these clogged die pieces fell out of the die and landed on the planchet then was struck by the hammer die, they should make an impression on any part of the coin, maybe weaker in low-relief areas, but still make an impression.

Thanks for the input, willing to learn something here, but just stating my analysis based on what I know thus far.

[jcuve]

I would have a hard time being convinced those marks were anything but a backwards 1 and an M.

Dropped elements have to match the design precisely. I think it is safe to say that if dropped element came from the anvil die, it pretty much could only end up beneath an intervening planchet, leaving only the hammer die (in this case the obverse) as the only source. Now being tied to a plausible source has to make sense without exotic explanations. And the area in question would have to fit with an overlay from the source. IN from the motto is not going to fit.

And Mike, an expert on such errors, already stated his views that the area in question were contact marks. Coins struck through a dropped element are exceedingly uncommon. I am not sure in the 5 years I have been active on this board we have seen more than 2-3 examples found.

[CoinHELP]

It's the reason I posted it here. I have never seen one myself and I am still learning the exotics. However, can't learn anything until all my questions have been answered, so thanks, and solved.

[Scott99]

If it were a "1", it is oriented correctly(not backwards) in the picture. lol However, would be the completely wrong type of font.

[CoinHELP]

I can see this needs picked back up. I didn't want to get involved in a lengthy discussion on this since it was just a coin of interest. The thing that made me bring it here in the first place was the contact marks that obscure some of the "dropped" letters. I had trouble with the I looking like a 1, but the N is the correct shape and font, but it also has a contact mark, thus further confusing the issue for me.

Now, on the contact marks, the one on the "N" and the "I" are in different directions, meaning they are horizontal and not vertical. I think this is significant to note, but not the end all answer. I carefully examined, under a scope, the edges and inside the marks, and they're relatively smooth without and die striations, then I noticed the lip of the rims that I am referring to as contact marks and they're are different.

I don't know, but it seems some of you don't know that you can click on the image after it opens up in a new window to get an even larger view. Sorry if I offend anyone on this, but it seems that way to me.

Anyway, I got my macro lens today and decided to practice on this coin a bit and offer some better images of what I am saying. If it's not a dropped letter than I am fine with that, however, I am not a newbie on errors, just not the expert many here are.

This coin just stood out to me and maybe I jumped the gun on what I thought it was, but there's enough of the letters to look so close that it gave me pause.

I do see that some of you are confused on dropped letters. A dropped letter is from the die being clogged with grease, or something soft. When the die retracts and another planchet enters the coining chamber, the letters fall of and onto the un-struck planchet. Then the hammer die strikes the planchet and causes a strike through of these letters.

Now, just because what you see on the internet is of perfectly shaped dropped letters doesn't mean this has to be the case. If the letters where only partially filled in the die then then they wouldn't strike through as complete letters.

Also, the distance from the planchet and the die and if the die was still in action will affect just where the dropped letters fall onto the planchet. You can't use an overlay since this has nothing to do with the reverse or anvil die, and it's not a die clash.

I have seen a few images of dropped letter errors and the struck through letters are not always close to the same letters on the struck coin, AND they're not always perfectly shaped since the clogging agent is soft and might not have filled in the letters 100%, not to be redundant.

I didn't want to get into this deep, just don't have the time, but when people post information that's misleading and not wholly accurate, then I have to chime back in. Anyway, the topic is solved as far as I am concerned. It's a coin of interest and a learning tool for me and to share with others on this subject.

[CoinHELP]

Hum, that's funny, either I am going insane or certain replies have been deleted, so ignore most of my reply to those who's comments are still in the thread.

[willbrooks]

So you are suggesting that 2 different dropped letters occurred at exactly the same time and landed on a new planchet right next to each other? Interesting. I can also ASSURE you that Jason and Mike know full well what a dropped letter is. They are two of the foremost experts in the entire universe on coin errors. I would listen to what they are telling you.

[mustbebob]

Hum, that's funny, either I am going insane or certain replies have been deleted,

If comments were deleted by either you, or a moderator, there would be some indication of it in the threads. It would identify that the posts were edited or deleted at the bottom of each post affected.

Is it possible that you typed something but didn't hit the 'SUBMIT' button? I have done that numerous times.

[CoinHELP]

So you are suggesting that 2 different dropped letters occurred at exactly the same time and landed on a new planchet right next to each other? Interesting. I can also ASSURE you that Jason and Mike know full well what a dropped letter is. They are two of the foremost experts in the entire universe on coin errors. I would listen to what to what they are telling you.

I do know who Mike is and I do listen to what he has to say, but my reply was to some posts that appear to have been deleted.

I make no such claim, but considered it a possibility, and this coin is the most fancy contact mark, dropped letter imitation I have seen. Just because I pose further questions and came here to post the coin, don't assume I don't know who is who or that I am ignorant of what I saying.

I just wanted other opinions, got that, made the thread solved, then some more posted and there needed to be some clarification.

I repeat, my reply wasn't directed at Mike or Jason, and I sent a PM to the mod to see if I am in error about replies being deleted. Don't want to be reading things that wasn't there.

I didn't come here to start trouble, just ask a question or two.

[mustbebob]

I repeat, my reply wasn't directed at Mike or Jason, and I sent a PM to the mod to see if I am in error about replies being deleted.

Which Mod did you send it to. I addressed your concerns in the post above, but I will go through it with the other Mod you contacted to make sure nothing is going on. We don't arbitrarily just delete posts. There will always be something letting us know it was changed. It is in the programming.

[Maineman750]

I agree and know Daniel...he is not questioning Mike's assessment...just clarifying why he saw what he saw.

Daniel,as for the missing comments...Bob is correct...you probably misread something or didn't hit "submit" if it was your own comment. Edited or deleted comments will always leave a trace.

Bob..it was me he contacted.

[CoinHELP]

I am not referring to my comments, but replies by other members before my lengthy post. This board is PHP based so I know deleted posts and such can be known. Sorry guys, I need to step away from the computer. Sad to think I caused this, didn't sleep well last night.