1971-D with lamination and if possible... die clash?

[amnight]

I wanted to know if it is possible for there to be a die clash on a coin with lamination? Specifically where the lamination is. The reason I ask is because there looks to be bars across the area in question. There is a slight rotation on the coin. I am attaching pictures and wanted to know if it is possible for there to be an area with lamination showing a die clash? Thanks for the replies.

[willbrooks]

Is that an unaltered picture of the reverse? Everything in mirror-image? edit: oh, I see it is normal in one picture and mirrored in another. Why did you do that? I'm lost.

[onecent1909]

OK one thing at a time.. could a coin have a clash and a lamination... YES
a lamination deals with the structure of the coin metal and impurities.. some lamination fall off the coin before it is struck... which is what yours appears to be..
A clash happens to the die .. when 2 dies come together with out a blank in between the hit which transfers the image of 1 die to the other die making a clashing sound...
BUT yours is not a clash ... the "bars" you see is the coin metal.. when a lamination happens the area that is left is not usually a clean area.. way more times than not ( I have never seen a clean area) it is "pulled apart" and leaves an irregular area.. your "bars"
Hope that helps

[GrumpyEd]

OK one thing at a time.. could a coin have a clash and a lamination... YES
a lamination deals with the structure of the coin metal and impurities.. some lamination fall off the coin before it is struck... which is what yours appears to be..
A clash happens to the die .. when 2 dies come together with out a blank in between the hit which transfers the image of 1 die to the other die making a clashing sound...
BUT yours is not a clash ... the "bars" you see is the coin metal.. when a lamination happens the area that is left is not usually a clean area.. way more times than not ( I have never seen a clean area) it is "pulled apart" and leaves an irregular area.. your "bars"
Hope that helps

I agree with what you said that the bars are not a clash. But I think the lamination had to still be in place when it was struck. LIBERTY is showing in the recess where the lamination came off, the reason it is there in the recess is because when it was struck the design was still formed in the recess through the lamination section. So what we see are imperfections in the metal like the bars plus the design/LIBERTY that was formed through that section when it was struck. I would think that if the section was already gone and LIBERTY was raised directly (not through the lamination) then there would be some flat area along the letters of LIBERTY. Doesn't that seem likely?

Added, it is odd how it ends at the rim on the right without anything showing crossing the rim. That might conflict with my idea but I don't see how LIBERTY can strike up directly with no flat area along the letters.

[jfines69]

To me it appears to be a strike thru of some sort... All edges appear evenly defined and the rim on the west side appears to be a dent... Liberty is fairly well defined but Abe is not suggesting a rippled piece of metal... Maybe a lamination peel from another coin!!!

[onecent1909]

Wow.. maybe my diet coke was spiked.. or it being 2:30 am...I didn't even notice the edge..... the edge does look very straight...
but I do not see a strike through from another lamination...
the metal that would be struck through would inhibit the strength of the liberty... liberty looks strongly struck to me...
this is why I thought lamination removed then struck.....a strike then lam removal would again leave a weak liberty....
The dent on the rim? do not know..
AMNIGHT.. is there a dent on the rim on the left? is it rough or smooth feeling?
your mirror image was to show what would be the die clash on the coin lining up with the "bars" correct?

I had to go read my books on errors..
If there was a gas bubble/impurity in the metal... when it was rolled out... it could form an impurity that would have straight sides...
the removal of metal before or after the strike would yield a coin that weighs lees then a standard coin...
If you have a scale you may want to weigh it and another 1970ish cent... see how close they are.

[amnight]

I did alter the pictures because I thought the light was to bright so I was trying to get some definition to what I saw(the bars). Here are the same pictures but they are unaltered. They might tell a different story... I don't know. Also, I took some closeups from left to right of the area with lamination. I have a question about what looks to me like a die crack below the word LIBERTY. Is it indeed a die crack? If so, how is it possible when there is lamination? More pictures!

[amnight]

Onecent1909, you are correct. My pictures where to illustrate what I thought was a die clash with the coin lining up with the bars. Here are pictures of both sides of the rim. The coin is underweight at 3.00 grams.

[onecent1909]

OK lets talk about Lamination... Die clash... and die cracks...
the last 2 have the word die in them.
They effect the die.... once the die is clashed or cracked it will transfer the crack (a jagged area into the die yielding a raised jagged area on the coin) or the clash (the image left on a die when 2 dies hit with no blank or planchette is in between them)...
both of these items are on the die.... just like the date or the bust of Lincoln or any of the letters on the coin...
all of this information is transferred onto EVERY blank or planchette struck by the dies making a coin with this on the coin
Lamination.... this is when a part of the blank or planchette has an impurity in it...
think of raisin bread.... you mix the dough ( or coin metal) with the raisin (or impurity) up.... when ready you form a loaf of bread ( or roll out the metal)... after it is baked you cut the bread (or form round disks called blank then it gets the upset rim and is called a planchette) this slice of bread (or planchette that is struck into a coin) will have the raisin (or impurity) still in it... you could pick out the raisin leaving a hole... this is a lamination that has been removed.

YES a die crack can be on a lamination...
I think your coin is a lamination..
another possibility is a strike through.. this is when a foreign object... say a cloth or another piece of metal falls onto the blank or planchette and is struck into that blank or planchette by the die... leaving an impression of the foreign object onto the coin..any devices under the object would be weak and not defined...
another possibility.. is damage after it left the mint.. but to cause that much of a smash uneven look the reverse would show some effect.. I do not think that is your coin..

no I do not think that is a die crack.. that area dos not crack on the dies... I think it is the lamination pull apart like the "bars" it is just what is left of the metal after the lam fell off

[amnight]

Thank you for the detailed explanation onecent1909, I appreciate your effort and time!

[onecent1909]

No problem we all are here to learn.. this made me reread my error books... Thank you for getting me to do that.

[liveandievarieties]

I do see a strike thru. If it were a lamination, the rim would have torn off with the lamination (the rim being part of the planchet). From the strength of the rim it appears that a strip of scrap was laying across the planchet when it was struck. The scrap was struck into the coin and fell out sometime after being minted.

Dramatic struck-thru errors are a lot more scarce than dramatic laminations, though the two are often mistaken for each other due to their very similar appearance.

[onecent1909]

I do see a strike thru. If it were a lamination, the rim would have torn off with the lamination (the rim being part of the planchet). From the strength of the rim it appears that a strip of scrap was laying across the planchet when it was struck. The scrap was struck into the coin and fell out sometime after being minted.

after looking at the 2nd set of pics again.. where the lamination would break away from the coin... there is no "rip" or tear it is a rounded edge from field to bottom of lamination valley except by the area near his nose and beard... small rip but could be a hit yeilding pushed up metal after the strike ...
this would lend to the strike through hypothesis..
and Liberty is not as strong as I once thought it was....

is it a strike through? now I am questioning myself.
JFINES69 and LIVEANDIEVARIETIES might have it right and I have been to blind to see the little detail of the rim....

agreed if it was a lamination the lamination would not stop at the rim
and if it is a strike through that is not a hard piece of metal Liberty may have some strength
and a strike through may put the small depression in the left rim


But it is not a die crack or a die clash... that I am sure of... I hope

[amnight]

Wouldn't the weight of the coin (3.00g) come into play somewhere?

[onecent1909]

the mint has a little give and take tolerance when it comes to weight...
LIVEANDIEVARIETIES posted on another post 10% of standard weight of 3.11
which means 2.95 to 3.26 if I am doing my math right
5 % either way
so 3.00 would be in that range..