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I have very little experience with CUDs so far and always have issues telling whether or not I even have one. So do I have a CUD or just folded metal? I checked out the listings and there are some really cool ones for the 77P.
Your coin was struck slightly off center. There is a resultant "extra rim." However, I see the line of demarcation on the rim where the relief changes. A rim cud? Possibly, but I find it a bit coincidental that the lines into it coincide with the correct location of a proto-rim. Interesting.
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Your coin was struck slightly off center. There is a resultant "extra rim." However, I see the line of demarcation on the rim where the relief changes. A rim cud? Possibly, but I find it a bit coincidental that the lines into it coincide with the correct location of a proto-rim. Interesting.
Thank you Will!! So I didn't even get the Misaligned Die correct... I do see the difference after looking at the off center compared to the MAD strikes. So from what you said, it is more than likely the outer rim folded over?
If it is folded over it may be a bit of a finned rim??? Another interesting thing is how the rev rim along that area is much wider than the rest of the rim... Can you see a separation line along the edge of the anomaly??? If folded over I would expect to see a separation!!!
Jim (A.K.A. Elmer Fudd) Be verwy verwy quiet... I'm hunting coins!!! Good Hunting!!!
If it is folded over it may be a bit of a finned rim??? Another interesting thing is how the rev rim along that area is much wider than the rest of the rim... Can you see a separation line along the edge of the anomaly??? If folded over I would expect to see a separation!!!
Thanks for checking it out Jim!! Yeah, I got no clue what I have here.
Like you fill a jar lid with soft dough, that represents a planchet in a collar. Then you take another jar lid that's slightly smaller to represent a die, mash it (with the flat top side down) into the other lid filled with dough, that represents the die striking the planchet that's in a collar. But lets say you mash it too hard or it's not aligned well so some dough gets raised up through the gap, the gap is because your lid used as a die was a bit smaller so it could fit within the collar. That raised dough that came up through the gap is your fin. Now take the dough out of the lid, it has that raised fin, set it on the table with the fin side down and it flattens the fin.
I'm not sure if this coin is a rim cud or a flattened fin but I suspect that being MAD, makes that gap bigger on the wide rim side and that makes a fin more likely to have been there. If you look carefully at a flattened finned rim you should see a separation line because the fin stared thin and got mashed flat but with a bit of wear you may not see it and then it looks a lot like a rim cud.
Like you fill a jar lid with soft dough, that represents a planchet in a collar. Then you take another jar lid that's slightly smaller to represent a die, mash it (with the flat top side down) into the other lid filled with dough, that represents the die striking the planchet that's in a collar. But lets say you mash it too hard or it's not aligned well so some dough gets raised up through the gap, the gap is because your lid used as a die was a bit smaller so it could fit within the collar. That raised dough that came up through the gap is your fin. Now take the dough out of the lid, it has that raised fin, set it on the table with the fin side down and it flattens the fin.
I'm not sure if this coin is a rim cud or a flattened fin but I suspect that being MAD, makes that gap bigger on the wide rim side and that makes a fin more likely to have been there. If you look carefully at a flattened finned rim you should see a separation line because the fin stared thin and got mashed flat but with a bit of wear you may not see it and then it looks a lot like a rim cud.
You are the man, without a doubt but I got to think on this a bit.... You are definitely the best I've seen when it comes to painting a picture with words!!
You are the man, without a doubt but I got to think on this a bit.... You are definitely the best I've seen when it comes to painting a picture with words!!
Totally agree with you Jon! Thank you so much for the explanation Ed! Okay, I'm with you so far... now what I don't get is why the pic in the glossary shows the edge of two coins and one is thicker than the other. Is that the finned rim edge that is thicker?
Totally agree with you Jon! Thank you so much for the explanation Ed! Okay, I'm with you so far... now what I don't get is why the pic in the glossary shows the edge of two coins and one is thicker than the other. Is that the finned rim edge that is thicker?
Yes.
So in the normal situation, the planchet goes through the upset mill and that sort of raises the rim to the normal shape so when struck it's about the right shape. A really hard strike makes the rim taller.
But..... I sort of don't agree that the glossary description is perfect because (atleast myself) when I think of a finned rim it's not the full width of a rim, it's a thin extrusion that folds easily and most of the time it does not go all the way around the coin. That's why they can fold down and look like cud because it's thin so it folds in easily and it's only in a section of the rim not the whole way around.
When I see a coin with the full rim being tall I call it a high rim.
That reminds me of something I say but none of the experts agree but I'm 100% sure of it because I've seen proof many times.... That is that most modern mint set zinc memorial cents have tall rims, not quite like the coin in that photo but they are noticeably thicker and when I say most I mean most I mean just about all of them and you'd need to search bricks of normal bus strikes to find a single cent that looks almost that way. It's so extreme that if you take a tubed roll of cents from the 90s (just a good example date) take 5 of the same years cents from mint sets, randomly put them in the roll, look at the tube from the side and you can instantly find those 5 mint set coins, the rims are taller, more squared and more perfect and really easy to spot. Also, if you fill a normal plastic tube of those same (1990s for example) of all mint set coins, it will only hold about 47-48 coins but if you fill it with normal bus strikes it will hold 50 and have room to squeeze in a few more and the lid will still close. I know this because the dealers I know gave me a lot of full or partial rolls all cut from mint sets and it was clear that 50 won't fit and they are different. Every time I mention this, the experts say "mint set cents are the same and made normally" or something like that. The reason it bugs me is I wonder what is different, why are the rims better? What do they do different that makes the rims higher and more perfect and more squared (similar to proofs but not as perfect)? Is it that they use more pressure? Just one of those things that I want to hear a reason for but always get told they're made the same LOL
Not sure if you remember, but I found one of those not long ago and questioned why it looked like a proof rim and you told me it might have been broken out of a mint set. It really does look different. Maybe the mint does use a higher pressure strike on the mint set coins to achieve a better looking consistent strike and that makes the rims taller. I would think that higher pressure would really wear on the dies so they don't do the same process on business strikes.
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