1977 P Date problem

[jfines69]

If some one is practicing on making counterfeit coins they would hone their skills on non valuable coins... After they get well versed on how to create a valuable coin out of a non valuable coin that most people would never be able to recognize the coins they practiced on would be of no further value to them except to spend... Hope that helps a bit... If I find a coin interesting I will keep it wether is is PSD or something else... We all collect what we like!!!

[Coin5]

Very interesting explanations. Never though about that...
Thanks

[Coin5]

For those interested, I took several other pictures of this coin to help visualize the problem with the date.
Here they are:
Fri Aug 24 08-06-43.jpgFri Aug 24 08-06-59.jpgFri Aug 24 08-13-58.jpgFri Aug 24 08-14-24.jpg
Fri Aug 24 08-14-55.jpgFri Aug 24 08-15-07.jpgFri Aug 24 08-16-13.jpgFri Aug 24 08-16-45.jpg
Fri Aug 24 08-16-57.jpgFri Aug 24 08-17-56.jpg

[Coin5]

And here a a few more:

Thanks.

Fri Aug 24 08-19-15.jpgFri Aug 24 08-19-33.jpgFri Aug 24 08-19-49.jpgFri Aug 24 08-20-30.jpg

[Coin5]

From observing those pictures and the coin, I have interpreted a few interesting things:

-There appears to be several cuts.
-All cuts seem to be coming from the same south south west (SSW) general direction; but with slightly different angles. That is consistent with a human hand making the cuts with a chisel to an static piece by slightly moving and rotating the hand resting (in a table top?). Several cuts like that are not likely to be made accidentally by a machine particularly because some are inside semi-protected areas like side of the 9 and the last 7, not affecting them. Too much of a coincidence, I think.
- The depth of the bigger cut appears to be hand controlled parallel to the surface.
-The cut of the "1" itself appears to have been made with a different stroke than the one that made the big area (different cuts).
-Inside the "1" affected part, which is incuse compared to its surroundings, looks like there are vestigial reddish areas from the original color of the coin consistent with a protected area for PSD. The difference in color is too hard to observe for me. Maybe you can tell better.

Please, be aware that my experience with coins is almost zero and I have no idea if they use chisels or alike at the Mint to repair hub dies, neither if hub dies can crack like working dies do. These are some personal interpretations from what I see in the pictures. Some of them or all, can be wrong though.

I'd like to hear opinions from others on this. I still have doubts about what caused this.

Thanks,
Adrian

Here are the marked pics with my observations:
Fri Aug 24 08-19-49 With Arrows.jpgFri Aug 24 08-16-13 Arrows Added.jpgFri Aug 24 08-14-55 With Arrows.jpg

[Coin5]

There are a couple more interpretations I have made (just thinking):

-The cut on the "1" top part, appears to have been made with a curved instrument, something like a gouge type device. The rest of the cuts look more flat like if they were made with a flat chisel.
-The orientation of the cuts indicate, that the position of the hub die when it was worked on was slightly rotated CCW from zero about -15 to -30 degrees, which is the expected working position for the die a person will choose to work in the area under the date and in between the date and the bust, not to have them in the way of the cuts.
Thanks.

[Coin5]

If all this is true and the pressumed rotation of the die during the repair job is correct, then the work should have been done by at least one right handed person.
I may be going too far with this one

[jfines69]

I may be going too far with this one

You're ok... You are just trying to figure out how and why the nicks and dings happened... I call it over anal eyesing which I do much more than I should... Eventually like me you will look at the coins and say it is Post Strike Damage (PSD) because there is no way to know exactly what caused the damage!!!

[jfines69]

The mint does not use chisels to do repair work on the dies... Also if the die was damaged that bad by any repair it would have been removed from service... On your coin I see no evidence of a chisel mark... I would expect a pressure ridge around the edges of the depression even after 41 years of circ wear... Have you ever seen a counter stamped coin??? Here is a link to some images https://www.google.com/search?q=merc...AgFEAE#imgrc=_ When a coin is counter stamped it may be collectable but it is still PSD... The side opposite of the counter strike is also heavily damaged... I hope that helps a bit!!!

[Coin5]

You're ok... You are just trying to figure out how and why the nicks and dings happened... I call it over anal eyesing which I do much more than I should... Eventually like me you will look at the coins and say it is Post Strike Damage (PSD) because there is no way to know exactly what caused the damage!!!

Well, I think this is what it's all about, looking at the coins and trying to find out what caused the problems... I'm not convinced this one is PSD and the more I look at the coin the more unconvinced I am, so the search for the cause continues for me...

Thanks for your remarks

[Coin5]

The mint does not use chisels to do repair work on the dies...

That is a huge, huge hurdle to my hypothesis...

Still, many questions remain... Why the smoothness in the anomalies, the presence of not one but several chisel cut like depressions, the reddish areas inside the deepest parts of those depressions, the blending with the surroundings, the apparent similar direction of the possible cuts, the concentration of anomalies in that area, what looks like small die chips in the area, the crack like feature... ?? As you mentioned the real origin of the anomalies may never be known; but all that keeps me interested on them.

Thanks for your input and interest. It helped.

[jfines69]

Well, I think this is what it's all about, looking at the coins and trying to find out what caused the problems... I'm not convinced this one is PSD and the more I look at the coin the more unconvinced I am, so the search for the cause continues for me...

Thanks for your remarks

Also remember that what is incuse (sunk in) on the coin is in relief (raised) on the die and what is in relief on the coin is incuse on the die... The fields on the coin are the face of the die and the die face unless worn is flat... I can add some more info a little later!!!

[Coin5]

Also remember that what is incuse (sunk in) on the coin is in relief (raised) on the die and what is in relief on the coin is incuse on the die... The fields on the coin are the face of the die and the die face unless worn is flat... I can add some more info a little later!!!

I've been referring all the time to the hub die, not the working die, exactly because of that. The hub die has the same relief as the coin.
More info will be appreciated.
Thanks for your input.
Adrian

[jfines69]

If it were on the working hub then there would be numerous working dies made with the same anomalies... If any re engraving or retouching of a die is required the mint would use the same tools that the Bureau of Engraving and Printing (BEP) uses to make the plates for paper money https://www.moneyfactory.gov/uscurre...neyismade.html Hope that helps a little more!!!

[Coin5]

Human errors are always possible...
The link is a very interesting and educative reading about how money is made. It shows, that Engravers use sharp tools to hand cut the steel dies... These tools are called "Gravers" and have various shapes, depending on the type of cuts they will be used for. Some are flat and chisel shaped...
They use chisel like tools to engrave steel dies for paper money, so I would expect them to use chisel like tools also to do repair jobs on coins' steel dies.
So far (for me), the evidence points in the direction that the damage is not PSD; but perhaps more evidence is required to be almost sure it wasn't PSD; so the quest for more evidence continues...

Thank you so much for your input, I really appreciate your follow up and debate.
Adrian