How to determine die states?

[jay4202472000]

I am looking to expand my understanding of this great hobby and am wondering if anyone knows a pretty detailed source of how to determine die states. I understand that later die state coins show easily seen die flow toward the rim. I want to study up on what the difference is between MDS & LDS and EDS & MDS. What is the line the coin has to cross to go from EDS to MDS, ect. What are the things to look for?

Is there a source out there like I am looking for or does this knowledge just come from experience?

Thanks all!

[mustbebob]

It pretty much has everything to do with die flow lines. An EDS coin will have little to no flow lines at all. MDS encompasses everything in between, so there would be many more MDS coins. As far as at what point the transition is made, it is very subjective. We do have EMDS or MLDS, but only use the three main die states on coppercoins.

[coppercoins]

Die states:

Very Early Die State (VEDS): No flow lines, outer edges of devices near the rim are crisp and sharp. Encompasses about 1.5% of all coins made by a die that made it through an entire life.

Early Die State (EDS): A very faint pattern of die flow lines may be present. Outer edges of devices are still crisp and sharp, but could show some very light feathering. Encompasses about 3.5% of a die's life.

Mid Die State (MDS): Some feathering on outer devices, but edges are still defined. Light to moderate flow lines throughout the outer 2/3 of the design. Generally broken into 'early' and 'late' stages (EMDS, LMDS). Encompasses 20% of a die's life.

Late Die State (LDS): Outer edges of devices near the rim lose definition and become mushy. Fine details throughout the design begin to lose definition. Flow lines are throughout the design and can be heavy. Encompasses 40% of a die's life.

Very Late Die State (VLDS): All devices begin to fade into mush. Outer edges of all devices near the rim are gone. Fine details and sharper edges throughout the design are gone. Flow lines take over the design - the design loses focus. Encompasses 35% of a die's life.

Number of coins (approximate) struck before die state changes, given 1,000,000 coins struck by a die:

VEDS: up to 12,000 coins struck.
EDS: up to 40,000 coins struck.
MDS: up to 250,000 coins struck.
LDS: up to 650,000 coins struck.
VLDS: up to 1,000,000 coins struck.

Given that a cent die can strike 1,000,000 coins, if you find a die variety in LDS, this means it is likely that at least 250,000 more of that die were struck, because that's about how many strikes it takes for a die to go into LDS. That's what the numbers mean.

Thing is, this number might sound huge, but in the case of 1961D-1MM-001 (which is known in LDS), this could comprise as little as 250,000 coins out of 1.75 billion total coins struck. That's 0.0014% of total 1961D production, which is why they are still difficult to find.

It's a matter of finding needles in haystacks. If your haystack is a million and you have 250,000 needles, then your chances are pretty good of finding one. But when your haystack is 1,700 times that size, the needles are substantially more difficult to locate.

[jay4202472000]

Thanks a ton Mr. Daughtrey! That is exactly the info I was looking for.

[jcuve]

I will add that there is still issue of the era the die was used, the composition of the coins struck and other variables can make assessing die state difficult.

The depth of the design on the die (how high the design is on a struck coin); die composition (no way to know if or how any one die may differ from another); a die being polished heavily to the point that flow lines are hard to detect (this can happen early or late in the die's life); other hard to predict variables like the assembly not being oriented correctly causing more wear some areas or possibly inconsistent compositional issues in one specific die causing early die fatigue to some areas.

The 1943 dies did not wear at the same rate or showing identical characteristics as dies striking bronze, or copper plated zinc, or silver, or nickel and so on. Lincoln cents from the '50s show signs of die fatigue that won't match the '70s or other eras. The '80s and early '90s started to see die wear very differently, presumably from the composition change to the planchets.

I suspect that the die striking 1936 1DO-002 starting wearing prematurely and somewhat oddly compared to the die striking 1936 1DO-001.

Die state sounds easy until you start to really get into it...

[coppercoins]

Jason is correct in his assessment that different compositions wore the dies differently. I should have placed in my original thread that the case of a million coins struck by a die are hypothetical in nature, as cent dies probably struck anywhere between 10,000 and 2,000,000 coins depending on the design, composition, and other factors.

I do disagree that determining die state is difficult, though. Just like grading a coin does not matter how many people held the coin, determining die state on an individual coin is not dependent on how many coins the die struck before your coin. It is determined ONLY by the amount of wear on the die at the time the coin was struck. It's all in how the die wore. Some wore faster than others for many reasons.

Die state is an examination of the condition of the die at the time the die struck an individual coin. All you need to be concerned with when determining die state on a coin is the evidence left behind by the die on THAT COIN.

The numbers of coins struck per die state and percentages of full die life strikes in each die state are very approximate.

[Maineman750]

This is good stuff so I made it a sticky..any of you experts can let me know when it is complete enough and I'll close the thread as well.

[georoxx]

...but in the case of 1961D-1MM-001 (which is known in LDS)....

Question: Does this suggest that 1961D-1MM-001's were not produced early in the run? This confuses me.

Thanks.

-George

[Maineman750]

Question: Does this suggest that 1961D-1MM-001's were not produced early in the run? This confuses me.

Thanks.

-George

No, it means they had a full run.

[coppercoins]

Georoxx - Think of it this way...

I have ten cookie cutters that wear out with use. Each one will make 100 cookies before breaking or wearing out. I need 2,000 cookies, so I'm going to need at least 20 cookie cutters to finish the job. Some cookie cutters break before others, so I'm going to play it safe and buy 15 more for a total of 25 of them.

Some of the cookie cutters make 100 cookies, and some even make 110 or so...but a few of them only make 25 cookies before going bad. So in the end, it might take 23 cookie cutters to punch out 2,000 cookies.

One of my 23 used cookie cutters had a flaw that people don't notice until they look at the finished cookies - it had squared edges instead of rounded edges.

Now...with all that, an examination of some of the cookies could tell you the following:

1. 23 cookie cutters were used - each one is slightly unique in its own way.
2. 2,000 cookies were made.
3. One of the cookie cutters was in error, making squared edges.
4. By examining ONE of the squared edge cookies you can tell YOUR cookie was made around the 50th cookie from that cutter.

So, you can tell that the error cookies - by examining YOUR error cookie - number AT LEAST about 50 total, so you know at least another 49 were made.

Then you take into account that it took you 30 minutes to figure all that out, and the cookies went to a hungry team of high school football players, and nearly a thousand of the cookies have been eaten.

The REAL challenge is: Without looking at the remaining cookies all at once, how many of the error cookies are likely to be left behind? I know, it's not possible...but we try. Welcome to the forensic study of square edge cookies.

The point to the story above - as the cookie cutters wore out, so do dies. The cookie cutters left signs behind telling someone with knowledge looking at cookies just about how many cookies were made with the cutter before that cookie was made. Die state gives us that information by looking closely at a coin.

[georoxx]

No, it means they had a full run.

OK. Thanks. I assumed something incorrectly. (That they ONLY were known in LDS... not that the run lasted LONG enough to still be producing "cookies" that late into the run.)

Now, if only Chris hadn't eaten all the Oreos... Wait - That's a different thread.

-George

Thanks guys.

PS: This is an informative thread. Thanks to all.

[willbrooks]

Nice explanation, Chuck. So would you say these cookie anomalies would be from diet deterioration?

Mod: Please feel free to delete this post when all of the actual useful information has been posted.

[coppercoins]

Ahh, yes...it is generally safe to assume that if something is known in LDS, that all the other die states previous to LDS exist for the die as well.

I have seen a number of dies, however, where not one coin is known previous to MDS. For what reason, I do not know.

Still yet, I know of a number of rather scarce die varieties that are not known beyond EMDS or MDS. Stands to chance that the dies were removed from service before a full die run.

While die state can certainly help to arrive at a decent educated guess as to the scarcity of some issues, die state is far more frequently used to map what happened to a die through its life. An example:

Any given die could be substituted here, doesn't matter, and once again this is hypothetical in nature...

You get a coin with an RPM you recognize and dig through your collection to see if you have a match. You find that there is a deep die gouge in a particular spot on the new coin that you seem to remember. You find another coin with the same die gouge and the same doubling on the mintmark. You check the position of the mintmark and everything adds up. You look around on the coin and find a decent size die crack on the new coin and a faint die crack in the same place on the other coin. Upon further investigation you find that your new coin has a clash mark that your other coin does not have. Your new coin is barely edging over LDS, and your other coin is MDS.

It would be safe to assume that both coins were struck with the same die. Your existing coin was minted before your new coin. A die crack was barely evident in your earlier coin, and in the later coin the die crack grew substantially. It's pretty safe to assume the die didn't last a lot longer because of the pace that the crack grew. By die state you can tell that somewhere around 100,000 coins separate your two, and the first was minted about 60,000 coins into the run. You can answer for what happened to the die approximately 160,000 coins into the die's life, but knowing they last around 1.2 million strikes, this die probably didn't make it all the way.

You also know that somewhere between the 60,000th coin and the 160,000th coin the die clashed with the other die it was paired with at the time leaving marks behind.

All of this can be derived from looking at a couple of coins from the same die struck at different times. This is where "die stage" comes from. Dies enter a new "die stage" every time they pick up a new marker that is evident through continuous strikes from that point forward. Die state itself can be used as a stage, but more frequently stages are specific to markers.

So the die stage chart for this die might look like this:

Stage A : EDS - reverse is EDS.
Stage B : MDS - die crack beginning. Reverse is MDS
Stage C : MDS - die crack a little larger, clash marks. - Reverse is MDS.
Stage D : Reverse die changed. Reverse is EDS.
Stage E : LDS - Larger die crack, clash marks worn away. Reverse is MDS.
Stage F : LDS - Very large die crack, new die crack in another area. Reverse is LDS.

In my hypothetical example above, we have six stages, lettered A through F. Note that the die state does not change with every stage...it is essentially independent from die stage except that later stages cannot be earlier die states (kinda obvious why). Note also that simply changing the opposite die can be a stage marker.

In essence, die state is ALL about the AGE of the die. Die Stages are about the markers on the die. The two are obviously related, but are independent from each other in most cases.

MOST references have gotten away from using the term "die stage" because it is too easily confused with "die state" - most simply use "stage" now.

Coppercoins.com does not use die stages because back when the site was developed it would have required too much web space, programming, and database power to list all of them. Some dies have 15 known stages. We decided to keep it simple with EDS, MDS, and LDS, and mention all the stage markers that occurred within the die states in the notes - it has served us rather well, but is undoubtedly a bit more simplified than it could be. Perhaps over-simplified to some people who collect their dies by stage.

[coppercoins]

I can see from the detail of my posts in this thread that this thread might not be suited to the beginner collector just getting involved and trying to learn the difference between machine doubling and doubled dies. This topic is rather advanced in nature, so must be explained in a rather advanced manner.

Still yet, though, it does show the amount of study that goes into figuring out the tiny nuances and small details that tell us what happened at the mint. It's never as simple as you might think until you start picking apart all the pieces under a microscope. it is this part of numismatics that fascinated me as a youth, and exactly where I headed as a researcher. I wanted the FULL challenge, and with Lincoln cents I definitely got what I bargained for.

While an understanding of everything I lined out in this thread is not necessary to the casual collector, at least a general understanding of it must be in play when you are trying to identify obscure die varieties. Most of the details we give on coppercoins.com, while dummied down in nature to a certain degree, give enough information for anyone who has a general understanding of die state and stages the ability to identify most dies most of the time.

We are continuously working to add more information to the die marker information on coppercoins.com to make the process easier, and with the new version of the website we plan to add a lot more marker images where they can be of help. Back in the early life of the website, we would often not publish minor marker images to save space, but now that space is not necessarily an issue, we plan to go back through the dies and add all the photos we can to help collectors properly identify their coins.

[Maineman750]

I put it in For the Beginer because it never hurts for newbies to read..and have a reference to return to...plus we don't have a For the Seasoned Collector Forum..yet