Grading and PCGS

[Amadauss]

This is more of a question to the pro's. I am sure all have heard about the Heritage Auction site and what things sell for there. If its not pennies, I love to look at the Morgan and Peace dollars and lately the prices these things are selling for. My brother collects a few and mentioned he is looking for a 1922 S. I went on the Heritage site to see what is available and found this one:

http://coins.ha.com/c/item.zx?saleNo=1166&lotNo=7320#Photo

The great thing about this site is you can really zoom in on the coin to examine it. I found this one graded by PCGS a MS65. That grade explanation states only light scattered contact marks that are not distracting, strong luster and good eye appeal.

Please zoom in on the cheek of this coin and tell me if it deserves this grade with all those marks? Am I being to over the top and critical about the marks? Just that in my eyes anything MS65 should be better then this. The lower part of the Y on the face is very low. The TRVST looks bad. The feathers on the tail look worn off. The A at the end of America isn't even there. What the heck is going on?

It makes me think that PCGS is not doing its best at what they are suppose to do and could it be does this person submit a lot of stuff and thus gets a better grade then it should be?

What do you think?

I'm editing this because not trying to cause a stir here with PCGS and know this is a Lincoln site but just trying to better understand grading.

[RWBILLER]

I can't see it - bit it is in a secure holder which is supposedly "ATP tier " coin. I have had some coins come back from the )Lincoln cents) that I disagreed with. If you really want a gureented grade, you look for a pcgs holder with a CAC sticker. But you bring up a good point. For the amount of coins they grade - is there that many experts out there to do it. You could pm chuck (coppercoins) or maybe he will chime in. He has done work for the grading companies.
Good discussion item!
Roger

[jallengomez]

I would say that coin is a 65. One thing you have to be careful of when looking at coins in such great pictures as Heritage has is zooming in and "micrograding" the coin. That mark would not stop a 65 grade in my opinion. Keep in mind the TPG graders either eyeball it, or at most use a 5x loupe.

[RWBILLER]

One other thing - marks on the bust and some of the devices is my understanding that they are not penalized a's much a's the open friends - unless very obvious.
Rrog

[Amadauss]

wow did not know that is how they graded with only eyeball or 5x loupe. Surprised to hear this. Considering because of that grade, the coin is going to sell for well over one thousand dollars, you would think they use some better equipment to examine. Also, if you go to the PCGS site and click on any coin they show it usually in several grades from MS 65 and up and the same Peace dollar, they show as an example grading at MS 65 does look a little better then this one.

[rlm's cents]

I am far from an expert at grading Peace dollars, but from running many guess the grade "tests", what I have seen is that most people seem to over emphasize the tiny nicks/ticks they see when they blow everything way up. Most (all?) professional graders grade with the naked eye or at most 5X for MS-70's. Even MS-68 coins have imperfections visible to the naked eye.

MS-68 This is for "Mint State" (the grade) and "68" (the numerical designation of that grade). A nearly perfect coin, with only minuscule imperfections visible to the naked eye. The strike will be exceptionally sharp and the luster will glow. This is an incredible coin.

from the PCGS glossary.

[rlm's cents]

I would say that coin is a 65. One thing you have to be careful of when looking at coins in such great pictures as Heritage has is zooming in and "micrograding" the coin. That mark would not stop a 65 grade in my opinion. Keep in mind the TPG graders either eyeball it, or at most use a 5x loupe.

You beat me to it!

[jfines69]

All coins, even ones fresh off the strike machines, will have some sort of minor flaws if you zoom in enough... I have never had anything graded but it appears to me that the TPGs are not consistant!!!

[BadThad]

I would say that coin is a 65. One thing you have to be careful of when looking at coins in such great pictures as Heritage has is zooming in and "micrograding" the coin. That mark would not stop a 65 grade in my opinion. Keep in mind the TPG graders either eyeball it, or at most use a 5x loupe.

Exactly!

I've found (like RLM) that people grossly under-grade using good, high resolution pictures. Every single, insignificant flaw is exposed, regardless of it's relavance. Grading is 90% eye appeal and 10% technical merit. Most coins can be graded without ever using ANY magnification at all....by far the best graders I know can pick up a coin and grade it within 15 seconds. Only the major distractions and their locations (i.e. primary focal points) will effect the grade.

HA.com uses such huge pictures it's easy to over analyze the grade. Yes, the pictures are usually excellent, but the best thing to do if you really want to look is to save them and view them downsized so you can get a better idea of what the coin looks like in hand.

[Amadauss]

I did take note on the PCGS page that they have a running count of how many coins they have graded so far. I did some quick calculations:

Start date for PCGS: 1986
Years in business: 26 years
Number of coins graded: 23,501,826
Average price for grading a coin: 18 dollars
Total income generated to date: 423,032,868.00
Average income per year: 16,270,494.00

The 18 dollar figure for grading per coin is on the low side because for example this Peace dollar would be a fee of 25 dollars and any coin valued at over 3000 dollars is 45 dollars.

Gentlemen and Ladies,
I propose that the members of this site are probably much more qualified and knowledgeable then most of the people PCGS has on their staff. I suggest we incorporate immediately.

What do you think?

[jallengomez]

wow did not know that is how they graded with only eyeball or 5x loupe. Surprised to hear this. Considering because of that grade, the coin is going to sell for well over one thousand dollars, you would think they use some better equipment to examine. Also, if you go to the PCGS site and click on any coin they show it usually in several grades from MS 65 and up and the same Peace dollar, they show as an example grading at MS 65 does look a little better then this one.

The reason they do that is because the grading system is based more on eye appeal rather than loupe appeal and keeps it easier for people to come to (somewhat) consistent grades. One great way to get an idea of what the TPGs are giving 65, 66, 67, etc. is by doing what you are doing and looking at coins on Heritage. I've learned more about grading by looking at actual examples of graded coins there than I have in any book on the subject. When you look at multiple examples in a given grade, this will also give you an idea of the margin of leeway allowed for a given grade.

[liveandievarieties]

I've never given it much thought, I'm a pretty decent grader- using a loupe to grade a coin seems rather silly. As mentioned, eye appeal has more to do with a coin's grade than anything else. Eye appeal includes luster, strike and amount of contact marks. I've seen plenty of coins with ample abrasions and tons of luster. They consistently grade higher than a techincally sharper coin with dull, flat luster. When using a loupe, you don't see the entire coin, which is what determines the grade, it's overall appearance.

Additionally, there's no such thing as an "exact grade". Grading is subjective, a matter of opinion, not precision or science. This is why there are some people who make very good livings by identifying undergraded slabbed coins and resubmitting them, often getting the coin in a holder at grade or more higher.

Furthermore, the TPGs have loosened their grading standards considerably over the last several decades. This further encourages re-slabbing and ensures a flow of income for the grading companies.

If you look at another field- world coins, their grading is quite strict. What passes for mint state in US coins will be considered XF or AU by a coin dealer in Europe. I've had friends who are world coin dealers say that numismatists in other countries laugh at our grading system, seeing it for what it is- a money game, not a means of judging a coin. Can't disagree with them when the "standards" change nearly every decade.

[BadThad]

The reason they do that is because the grading system is based more on eye appeal rather than loupe appeal and keeps it easier for people to come to (somewhat) consistent grades. One great way to get an idea of what the TPGs are giving 65, 66, 67, etc. is by doing what you are doing and looking at coins on Heritage. I've learned more about grading by looking at actual examples of graded coins there than I have in any book on the subject. When you look at multiple examples in a given grade, this will also give you an idea of the margin of leeway allowed for a given grade.

Agree, I've spent countless hours looking at ha.com and it is one of the best places to learn grading in general. Where it gets hard is at the higher levels, i.e. 65 and up. At that level luster makes a huge difference and it's really hard to "see" luster from a picture. To learn the higher grades you really need to see the coins in hand....which is why it's really helpful to have a local shop to hang out at.

[kloccwork419]

Its a good place to cherrpick too. Most collectors selling their coins on there arent variety collectrs. Theres alot of coins that are sent in for a grade only.

[papascoins]

Hi.
I am by no means a professional here, but:
I looked at the coin and I just wanted to share something a dealer told me once. He said: "you would be surprised how many coins 'EITHER' grade AU 58 or MS 65, (one or the other, I mean), because it may be a gem coin with the slightest bit of wear on a high point". I saw the slight contact marks which could have made it 64, but 65 would be more accurate. I also saw the tail feathers you mentioned, and even something worn in the front hair curls, which maybe would distract me from buying the coin. Just my opinion here! The weak letters and such, from not being such a strong stike, would not keep me from buying it though.
Hey, you're right. What is it? Is it what they graded it? Everyone has an opinion. Is your brother very particular? Or just looking for the grade #? I guess if it was a good price, I would want it.
Mark